Surrounded Units (Full Version)

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Chris H -> Surrounded Units (8/5/2011 11:55:18 AM)

What is the effect on surrounded units? From search it appears they have more chance of surrendering.


Also. I have Japanese units cut of from ground supply in Akyab (my base by the way) but they do not appear to be suffering any measurable losses. Ground supply should be impossible and Naval supply does not appear to have effect. Air attacks, bombardment, ground attacks don't seem to have any affect and it's been like this for a long time in game terms, well over six months, could be closer to a year. The AI difficulty is set to very hard.




Sardaukar -> RE: Surrounded Units (8/5/2011 1:40:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

What is the effect on surrounded units? From search it appears they have more chance of surrendering.


Also. I have Japanese units cut of from ground supply in Akyab (my base by the way) but they do not appear to be suffering any measurable losses. Ground supply should be impossible and Naval supply does not appear to have effect. Air attacks, bombardment, ground attacks don't seem to have any affect and it's been like this for a long time in game terms, well over six months, could be closer to a year. The AI difficulty is set to very hard.


That's why. When difficulty is set Hard, AI gets supply bonus. Very hard, AI will not suffer supply problems at all. Bottom line, you cannot starve AI units on Very Hard.




Chris H -> RE: Surrounded Units (8/5/2011 1:46:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

What is the effect on surrounded units? From search it appears they have more chance of surrendering.


Also. I have Japanese units cut of from ground supply in Akyab (my base by the way) but they do not appear to be suffering any measurable losses. Ground supply should be impossible and Naval supply does not appear to have effect. Air attacks, bombardment, ground attacks don't seem to have any affect and it's been like this for a long time in game terms, well over six months, could be closer to a year. The AI difficulty is set to very hard.


That's why. When difficulty is set Hard, AI gets supply bonus. Very hard, AI will not suffer supply problems at all. Bottom line, you cannot starve AI units on Very Hard.


OK! That explains it. What about being surrounded?




Lomri -> RE: Surrounded Units (8/5/2011 2:23:30 PM)

If you own all hex-sides I think the unit can't leave the hex while you have units in it. (If all your units leave they are un-trapped. Might be an AV threshold but if there is it is pretty low).

To clarify, you need a unit in the same hex as the enemy, not in each bordering hex.


I've been speculating if I want to bump down my game from Very Hard to Hard because it seems a valid strategy to cut off and starve your opponent, and without it some very defensible places might take forever to reduce. (Esp places where the AI tends to stack tons of units). But for ever other little island outpost that the AI might not be good at feeding would get easier to take, and that's no fun.

[I am not sure if the unit is more likely to surrender, or banzai charge or whatnot.]




Sardaukar -> RE: Surrounded Units (8/5/2011 3:49:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

What is the effect on surrounded units? From search it appears they have more chance of surrendering.


Also. I have Japanese units cut of from ground supply in Akyab (my base by the way) but they do not appear to be suffering any measurable losses. Ground supply should be impossible and Naval supply does not appear to have effect. Air attacks, bombardment, ground attacks don't seem to have any affect and it's been like this for a long time in game terms, well over six months, could be closer to a year. The AI difficulty is set to very hard.


That's why. When difficulty is set Hard, AI gets supply bonus. Very hard, AI will not suffer supply problems at all. Bottom line, you cannot starve AI units on Very Hard.


OK! That explains it. What about being surrounded?


Doesn't matter. On Very Hard AI units NEVER run out of supply, no matter what.




Chris H -> RE: Surrounded Units (8/6/2011 9:38:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

What is the effect on surrounded units? From search it appears they have more chance of surrendering.


Also. I have Japanese units cut of from ground supply in Akyab (my base by the way) but they do not appear to be suffering any measurable losses. Ground supply should be impossible and Naval supply does not appear to have effect. Air attacks, bombardment, ground attacks don't seem to have any affect and it's been like this for a long time in game terms, well over six months, could be closer to a year. The AI difficulty is set to very hard.


That's why. When difficulty is set Hard, AI gets supply bonus. Very hard, AI will not suffer supply problems at all. Bottom line, you cannot starve AI units on Very Hard.


OK! That explains it. What about being surrounded?


Doesn't matter. On Very Hard AI units NEVER run out of supply, no matter what.



Yeah I got the supply but what are the effects of an Ops report stating units have been surrounded? They must be some.




Alfred -> RE: Surrounded Units (8/6/2011 4:51:56 PM)

Putting aside the issue of not getting supply, which isn't relevant in this instance due to the difficulty level the game is being played at, by itself "surrounded" means nothing.

To make the term "surrounded" mean something, you must by combat force the "surrounded" units to retreat. Then the term will come into play. Forced to retreat but unable to move to another hex, the defeated units will either surrender or banzai.

Alfred




Bradley7735 -> RE: Surrounded Units (8/6/2011 4:57:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

What is the effect on surrounded units? From search it appears they have more chance of surrendering.


Also. I have Japanese units cut of from ground supply in Akyab (my base by the way) but they do not appear to be suffering any measurable losses. Ground supply should be impossible and Naval supply does not appear to have effect. Air attacks, bombardment, ground attacks don't seem to have any affect and it's been like this for a long time in game terms, well over six months, could be closer to a year. The AI difficulty is set to very hard.


That's why. When difficulty is set Hard, AI gets supply bonus. Very hard, AI will not suffer supply problems at all. Bottom line, you cannot starve AI units on Very Hard.


I'm pretty sure that normal level (ie, not very hard or hard), AI units don't suffer many penalties for being out of supply. I've seen AI units on a dot base for 2 years and not wither away. They might suffer disablements, but I'm pretty sure they won't have destroyed devices from lack of supply.






bradfordkay -> RE: Surrounded Units (8/6/2011 5:49:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

What is the effect on surrounded units? From search it appears they have more chance of surrendering.


Also. I have Japanese units cut of from ground supply in Akyab (my base by the way) but they do not appear to be suffering any measurable losses. Ground supply should be impossible and Naval supply does not appear to have effect. Air attacks, bombardment, ground attacks don't seem to have any affect and it's been like this for a long time in game terms, well over six months, could be closer to a year. The AI difficulty is set to very hard.


That's why. When difficulty is set Hard, AI gets supply bonus. Very hard, AI will not suffer supply problems at all. Bottom line, you cannot starve AI units on Very Hard.


OK! That explains it. What about being surrounded?


Doesn't matter. On Very Hard AI units NEVER run out of supply, no matter what.



Yeah I got the supply but what are the effects of an Ops report stating units have been surrounded? They must be some.



Yeah, they can shoot in all directions now... [;)]




Alpha77 -> RE: Surrounded Units (8/9/2011 7:54:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735


I'm pretty sure that normal level (ie, not very hard or hard), AI units don't suffer many penalties for being out of supply. I've seen AI units on a dot base for 2 years and not wither away. They might suffer disablements, but I'm pretty sure they won't have destroyed devices from lack of supply.





Brad - I have a feeling your right, cause IIRC correcly I play at "historcial" and cut off units do not seem to "wither" away. They also seem to gain amunitions in addition to food and drinks cause they always shoot back....instead using spears built from jungle branches [:D] Some Japs (seem to be ca. 2 divs) are cut off for 1 year or so at Warazup with NO friendly base in reach at all (next one would be Port Blair - an island as most of you know) at land Saigon is the last Jap possession in this theater (also cut off [;)])




Sredni -> RE: Surrounded Units (8/9/2011 8:53:00 PM)

This is a great game, but I find the inability to attrit the AI to be the biggest flaw in an AI game. You can't effectively siege ground units, and it doesn't matter what your win/loss ratio is the enemy never seems to run short on airframes. You can't cut off islands and expect them to wither, the AI seems able to run air ops out of empty bases with zero supply.

A fight like the real guadalcanal campaign the AI never really runs short on supply, or rather never suffers for running short. You can't slowly wear down the ground units, you need to overpower them in short battles that inflict enough casualties to take chunks out of the enemy assault value.




Alpha77 -> RE: Surrounded Units (8/9/2011 9:04:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sredni

This is a great game, but I find the inability to attrit the AI to be the biggest flaw in an AI game. You can't effectively siege ground units, and it doesn't matter what your win/loss ratio is the enemy never seems to run short on airframes. You can't cut off islands and expect them to wither, the AI seems able to run air ops out of empty bases with zero supply.


It seems to me that "cutting" islands may work. At least for air ops. Not to attrit ground troops (??). I had a feeling during play that the AI can use his Betties from very small bases also (seems Ai does not need torp supply.). But..... experience shows that airfields and plane ops can be stopped like vs. human players also vs. AI. You just need more assets and constantly bomb the base. Example would be Lunga. Also cut off for long time, for a while Jap was still sending Betties around also CAP was flying. However I managed to interceot most supply ships which the AI did send there.....even THAT the AI does send ships to supply the base should be prove that they need supply there (?). For weeks the Jap air activity stopped at this place. However after some AKs slipped through and deliverd what I believe should be supplies to Lunga the Jap was promptly back in the air. It took some bombing runs as well ship bombardement to shut them down again. However troops numbers seem not to go down if I can trust the recon.

No idea if my conclusions are right however... [&:]




Chris H -> RE: Surrounded Units (8/9/2011 11:56:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sredni

This is a great game, but I find the inability to attrit the AI to be the biggest flaw in an AI game. You can't effectively siege ground units, and it doesn't matter what your win/loss ratio is the enemy never seems to run short on airframes. You can't cut off islands and expect them to wither, the AI seems able to run air ops out of empty bases with zero supply.

A fight like the real guadalcanal campaign the AI never really runs short on supply, or rather never suffers for running short. You can't slowly wear down the ground units, you need to overpower them in short battles that inflict enough casualties to take chunks out of the enemy assault value.


Two sides to the arguement. The AI is dumb and has no idea when to retreat or maybe how to prevent being cut off so giving them extra supply abilities is the easiest way to overcome the problem. On the other hand it does spoil the game some what.

Would be better to say have the AI get some percentage of it's daily needs, high, but still a percantage say 95% on very hard.

Another thing that also seems to happen is they get replacements when cut off. Is this true? If so then pehaps they shouldn't.




Bradley7735 -> RE: Surrounded Units (8/10/2011 1:45:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

Two sides to the arguement.


This.

I can't imagine trying to code the AI in a game this complex. It takes me 30 minutes to set up a turn in my games. Can you imagine trying to run the Japanese side as AI? So many, many things to account for. Andy has done miracles with the AI.




PaxMondo -> RE: Surrounded Units (8/10/2011 5:19:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735


I can't imagine trying to code the AI in a game this complex. It takes me 30 minutes to set up a turn in my games. Can you imagine trying to run the Japanese side as AI? So many, many things to account for. Andy has done miracles with the AI.

+1

30 mins? I wish I was that fast! [:D]

Kudos to Andy!

[&o][&o][&o]




zzodr -> RE: Surrounded Units (8/10/2011 6:14:30 AM)

You might just need to play AE till the 1970s to see complete attrition of Japanese forces. [;)]

Japanese holdout registry:
http://www.wanpela.com/holdouts/registry.html




Gunner98 -> RE: Surrounded Units (8/10/2011 6:39:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H


Another thing that also seems to happen is they get replacements when cut off. Is this true? If so then pehaps they shouldn't.


I thought that once supply ran out AI units were able to survive but were not able to:

-get replacements
-repair disabled elements
-fortify or build/repair anything

Have I got this wrong?

B




caaraa -> RE: Surrounded Units (8/10/2011 8:43:36 AM)

If you own all hex-sides I think the unit can't leave the hex while you have units in it.
[img]http://www.primeaffiliate.com/track/images/18.games.jpg[/img]




janh -> RE: Surrounded Units (8/10/2011 10:22:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77
It seems to me that "cutting" islands may work. At least for air ops. Not to attrit ground troops (??). I had a feeling during play that the AI can use his Betties from very small bases also (seems Ai does not need torp supply.). But..... experience shows that airfields and plane ops can be stopped like vs. human players also vs. AI. You just need more assets and constantly bomb the base. Example would be Lunga. Also cut off for long time, for a while Jap was still sending Betties around also CAP was flying. However I managed to interceot most supply ships which the AI did send there.....even THAT the AI does send ships to supply the base should be prove that they need supply there (?). For weeks the Jap air activity stopped at this place. However after some AKs slipped through and deliverd what I believe should be supplies to Lunga the Jap was promptly back in the air. It took some bombing runs as well ship bombardement to shut them down again. However troops numbers seem not to go down if I can trust the recon.

No idea if my conclusions are right however... [&:]


Hmmh, interesting. The things I noticed recently (peeking over the fence during my AI games to fix its chaos and retreat some sacrificially placed TFs) were that AI doesn't seem to need any V-support at base, and still can render huge numbers of planes ready for action. Also AI seems to rarely fill up it's pilot pools on time, leaving empty planes sitting as easy targets? (Does anyhow know how AI handles pilot training?)

Alpha77, didn't by chance bomb Lunga and a build-up of runway and service damage caused the Japanese air activity to cease until enough supply for repair of the airfield was available? Else, I found that AI only ceases operating on an airfield if squadrons are so low on planes that they get auto-disbanded, and reformed at a different (rear area) base. The AI scripts will move them forward again by transport, or transfer, though. That kind of often leads to easy means of attrition of the AI's trained pilot pools, since AI never coordinates such transfer in a single schwerpunkt movement, yet always send squadrons one by one piecemeal back to the fight.

Much like it also sends many small convoys rather than large, well-covered ones. Or loves many small amphib TF's, coming piecemeal one after the other, day after day... For example in my last game I took Fidji, and in July 42 a AI script pushed NZ and OZ units to counterinvade -- besides that AI should have seen my 6 KB carriers loiter there for weeks, in full sight, and either should never have launched this script at this point, or at least send the five USN CV (sitting at Auckland's port) in first, the AI would only have stood a chance if it had combined the LCU forces.

I still think that AI could need a boost, and the especially scripting possibilities/functions extended (like a bigger variety of logic triggers, and funcs to check for enemy presence before launching/continuing a script, to reinforce/release unit lists etc). Perhaps also the selection of the bonuses to AI could be done in similar fashion to WiTE, i.e. individually using sliders and check boxes. Else, this game is so close to perfect, that it would really add immensely to the longevity of this title. I don't think I can move on from this anytime soon...









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