Struggling in the Low Countries (Full Version)

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Pajoenien -> Struggling in the Low Countries (7/31/2011 2:27:30 AM)

I have mastered Norway with relative ease but am struggling big time in the following scenario- Low Countries! Would appreciate any tips.

KerenskyLI -> RE: Struggling in the Low Countries (7/31/2011 4:02:26 AM)

I have a video of Low Countries, have a look.
It is on a special Manstein difficulty (+5 Allied units strength), so you should have an easier time of it.

Artillery is very effective against the AI.

balto -> RE: Struggling in the Low Countries (7/31/2011 5:30:22 AM)

KerenskyLI, how did you get that gigantic CORE force? And what is Manstein difficulty? What does +5 Allied Unit Strength mean?

Pajoenien, I am not very good at this, but I do the exact opposite of KerenskyLI. I hit both of the Northern towns with my two ARTY and two bombers and two Pioneers. Then send the armor across to hide from harm for that first crossing turn by keeping them as far north as you can on the Leuven-Maastrich road and covering them with Fighters. Then on second turn, knock out both of those forts.., the whole time conserving your force. After turn 2 (assuming Maastrich and Liege are in your hands and you busted the two forts), wing it after that.

In the south, take Luxemborg with a minimal force and then take up defensive postions in the woods until stuff starts happening up north.

You need to have some Pioneers in your Core Force for Low Countries to work. Also 2 Arty and 2 fighters.

terje439 -> RE: Struggling in the Low Countries (7/31/2011 10:45:41 AM)



And what is Manstein difficulty? What does +5 Allied Unit Strength mean?

Highest difficulty. Allied unit will have a strength of 15 instead of the normal 10.

I tend to use Paratroopers in this scenario (two of them). They will move in the south and take the city in the South East (not the target one, but the one just south of it on the other side of the river).

Terje -> RE: Struggling in the Low Countries (8/11/2011 1:03:44 AM)

To me the low countries have proven almost impossible. Part of the problem is getting the guts ripped out of my "elite" forces. By the time I'm getting to the west cities everyone is green again due to all the green replacements. Could someone give me a force structure? Complete 22, not just 2 arty, 2 pioneer.....


Rood -> RE: Struggling in the Low Countries (8/11/2011 3:44:05 PM)

I'll check if I have a savegame left of the Low Countries scenario and check my setup

I do remember I had at least one and possibly two SE units, that makes quite a difference.

James Ward -> RE: Struggling in the Low Countries (8/11/2011 3:58:33 PM)

I struggled with the Low Countries until I motrotized most of my infantry, decided to make the main push in the South and decided not to try to take every VP hex. I think you can win it with a wide variety of forces but you need just that, a variety. You need fighters, bombers, artillery, engineers etc.

Amoral -> RE: Struggling in the Low Countries (8/11/2011 5:18:05 PM)

No matter what you choose as your Axis of advance there will be lots of choke points. That means there is no rush to deploy all your reserves on the first turn. There's simply no room for them to advance. Generally I don't deploy my tanks. That saves me the cost of upgrading them until the second or third turn after I have captured a few new VPs. Overstrength artillery is critical to forcing through the chokepoints, I think. -> RE: Struggling in the Low Countries (8/14/2011 2:58:37 AM)

I watched the KerenskyLI videos on YouTube. Fantastic. Especially the very low loss rate of your units. I was also fascinated by the way surrounded units with many strength points left would surrender. I have been playing on the Col level and I have NEVER had that kind of results. In over 20 games Polish, Norway and Low Countries I have discovered the following rules. 1) The enemy will get a point over 95% of the time even if he is red and you have a 10 pointer to his 2 points. 2) A 1 pointer will surrender, 2 pointers will often surrender and 3 pointers have never surrendered even when surrounded. 3) How you managed to lose so few points in Poland, Norway are a mystery to me. I have even set up identical attacks to the ones on your video and end up with 2-6 point loses in each attack where you take no losses. How do you do it? Have you modded the random number generator? Are you saving the game and varying the attacks until you get a "good" random number? Or do I just a have a computer with a random number seed that hates me? [&:] The 5 Arty units, 4 fighter units and heavy tank/infantry units appear above my capabilities with the points I get...unless I play on LT level. Any assistance would be appreciated.

Grotius -> RE: Struggling in the Low Countries (8/14/2011 5:09:59 PM)

I was also interested in Kerensky's video. I was surprised how many Strategic Bombers he used. I know they can degrade the enemy's ammo and fuel, but those results seem undramatic to me when I use them. They do suppress quite a few, though, so I suppose he's using them like super-mobile artillery.

I was also surprised that he seemed to use zero paratroopers. In some scenarios, I just can't get to the furthest objectives without paratroopers.

Josh -> RE: Struggling in the Low Countries (8/14/2011 7:23:19 PM)

For what it's worth, I've played the original PG to death, and the low countries were *always*  the toughest. Even when I had mastered the game almost to perfection these scenarios were real tough.
I've forgotten why exactly, must've been because of the lack of exp. in my troops. -> RE: Struggling in the Low Countries (8/14/2011 8:34:00 PM)

The Low Countries have always been very difficult due to huge distance with many chokepoints in the way. Still, I had mastered it in PG. Here nothing seems to work since I ALWAYS end up losing about 3 points to the Allies 4. Given his huge numbers of units. I just get worn down. I noticed the AI often seems to reverse the odds. i.e. if it was 2 Axis losses and 4 Allied losses....Suddenly, the actual attack gives 4 Axis losses and 2 Allied. I really hate it when he is down to 4 or 5 points and solid RED (fully suppressed) and BAM he inflicts 5 losses to his 2.
I've been playing PG for years so this isn't just a case of noticing the bad results and not the good ones. I think I've got a bad seed generator (sob, sob) Oh well, onward!!!!!

KerenskyLI -> RE: Struggling in the Low Countries (8/15/2011 8:25:58 AM)

Save/load cheating while recording, and thus having to re-record every segment per use of save/load cheating, would have been a nightmare.  So no save/load cheating during the videos. Besides, save/load cheating doesn't really work in Panzer Corps anymore, you get perfectly identical battle results when you fight battles in the same order.
I guess the important thing to keep in mind is that suppression stacks.

Bentusi -> RE: Struggling in the Low Countries (9/11/2011 7:09:32 AM)



To me the low countries have proven almost impossible. Part of the problem is getting the guts ripped out of my "elite" forces. By the time I'm getting to the west cities everyone is green again due to all the green replacements. Could someone give me a force structure? Complete 22, not just 2 arty, 2 pioneer.....


I managed a decisive victory in the Low Countries after about four tries. I was heavy on infantry in the north, with two pioneers, two grenadiers, one bridge, one mountain as well as two paratroopers and the aux infantry unit. I also had a upgraded sFH artillery unit here, the aux strat bomber, one tac bomber and two fighters to guard them. I just dumped the two paratroopers on the other side of the river to speed up the initial crossing, then got the forts. Don`t go for Brussels too early, as getting across the Dyle is a right pain in the gluteus maximus. After you have some control and perhaps air superiority, drop the aux paratroopers behind the city before you try the assault. After this you should have a decisive win already, hopefully.

All my armor was in the south, with 2 IVDs, which are the best available, and 4 crappy tanks. It might be good to try and upgrade some of them on the way, but I couldn`t afford this when I played. I also had a mobile artillery Sturmpanzer, my recon unit, one pioneer and the aux infantry and AD. I also had one fighter and my one paratrooper down south. My plan was to get this unit in the clear out by the coast to capture Calais. This was not easy to do, since the fighter has to turn back at some point, but I made it eventually.

In the north I was very methodical and careful, making sure to minimize damage, especially until I had air superiority. They should make it to Brussels and Maubeuge before the time is up, Lille if you do a little better than I did.
In the south, hammer Sedan with artillery and the armor, but get the infantry in for the assaults by placing them first in the line up back in the woods. Hit the artillery and AD and steam right past, the armor needs to reach Lille and Abbeville and can`t afford to stop. Clear away any supporting units around the strat points and burn on, leave the assaults to the Sturmpanzer and infantry as they catch up. A pioneer and the artillery can take out any city on normal difficulty in one round, minus rest for the infantry and rearming the artillery. Keep the flak right next to the artillery at all times.

The biggest problem was dealing with the French armor once I exited the choke between the two rivers east of San Quentin, since my armor is positively crap at this point. Try to surround the enemy if possible, or force them into the rivers. Ambushes can work too, if you can set any up. Anyways, Once my armor was attacking Abbeville and Lille I had air superiority and my bombers could help out with slow points. The main thing is to have something in or near all the strat points two rounds before the finish, so you can wing it with some save manipulations on the last round. But get a paratrooper to Calais or it`s not possible, at least not as far as I can tell. The only other option I can see would be to either finegle one of the best recons up there somehow and hope it was either unoccupied or that the recon could clear it alone, or possibly to reverse the strategy I used and place all the armor to the north, in which case the problem would presumably be Abbeville instead of Calais.

The way I did it it is advisable to upgrade the vehicle of the south pioneer so it can barge ahead of the artillery and soften up targets while waiting. The flak doesn`t need it since it`ll be following the slowish artillery anyway. Speed is the key to this and I rushed far more than I felt comfortable with.
And never get green replacements for the core units unless you absolutely must. This will kill your tanks and air-force for Barbarossa and make that totally impossible. The green button is exclusively for aux units in my humble opinion.

Force structure: 21 total

3 fighters, bf 109E
1 tactical bomber, bf 110D
6 tanks : 2 IVD, 1 IIF, 1 38(t)A, 1 IB and 1 IIC
8 infantry : 3 pioneers, 2 grenadiers, 1 bridge, 1 paratrooper and 1 mountain
2 artillery : 1 sFH, 1 Sturmpanzer
1 recon : 232 8RAD


1 strat bomber
2 paratroopers
2 infantry

gentex -> RE: Struggling in the Low Countries (10/21/2011 5:57:13 PM)

Thanks for the tips and I hope they can help me out.  Having recently gotten PC I was thrilled as I used to love playing PG.  I guess I've gotten rusty as I struggled through the final two tutorial scenarios.  I then started the '39 campaign and Poland went easy, Norway... not so much.  I did end up with a DV in Norway on about my last "click" of the last turn that I could get the DV.  My happiness was quickly diminished when I came to the deployment phase of Low Countries...  I've lost several of my key core units and only have about 846 prestige to start...  I think I'm doomed.

I forgot to mention... playing on Colonel, with weather, supplies, and all clicked to on.

UPDATE: I was obliterated in the Low Countries and now starting all over. I shall prevail.

MisterMax -> RE: Struggling in the Low Countries (11/29/2011 2:25:49 PM)

I just bought the game and after the tutorial immediately started on field marshal level (played PG a bit too much). Poland and Norway were indeed not much of a problem for a decisive victory.
I did get a DV on my first try for low countries (although only in the last turn though...). One special unit available (tank) and still had 3 core slots unused. I only had 4 tanks to start with but I was heavy on the air support (3 fighters, 3 tac air in core and the aux units). Furthermore one inf was upgraded to paratroopers for a total of 3 para units. I didn't have engineers (but that would have been usefull). I had positioned all but one of my armor in the south, two soak-off inf in the centre and most units in the north. Dropping the paras right in the first turn (and the core one in the second turn) I quickly drew the attention of allied air force and some tank units in the north. By destroying the fighters quickly (and gaining air superiority) and damageing but not destroying some expensive allied units I got the same result as what happened in most panzer general scenarios...namely that the AI will invest a lot of prestige in reinforcing the damaged expensive units, thus not buying plenty of irritating soak off stand in the way AA and AT.
The result was an easy breakthrough along the southern edge of the map and a sluggish war of attrition in the north.
When the best allied troops were committed in the north, I redeployed my 2 remaining paratroopers (lost one aux unit) to drop behind enemy lines again. That was not difficult as i had air superiority again. In the south I bought my remaining core units (which was cheap artillery) for support.
This way i managed to squeeze the DV. I usually buy new core units only when the need arises and prefer to spend prestige on elite replacements of existing units (with priority to air units - especially fighters, and then paratroopers and tanks).
I sort of thinking of my tactics as a way of cheating because I by sort of direct the spending of AI prestige so I can keep focus on my breakthroughs. It does resemble history a bit though through the Ardennes ...;)

RzM1939 -> RE: Struggling in the Low Countries (12/12/2011 7:39:31 PM)

I've come to a halt on the Low Countries also. About to give up on Panzer Corps altogether at this point.

Had no problem with Poland and Norway, but I get bogged down 3/4 of the way through this map and run out of time. Always the same story - 2 or 3 objectives short and my core is worn down to nothing and I'm forced to replace with green troops, robbing me of experience. Even if I managed to pull out a marginal victory it wouldn't matter because my core force is obliterated.

Have tried everything that's been suggested here: heavy air, heavy armor, good mix, and dropping paras to capture the western end.

It's just disheartening to realize I'm stuck on Col. level, when I read that most here blaze through every map on the highest difficulty in 10 turns with virtually no casualties.

I must be doing something fundamentally wrong, just can't figure out what it is. [:(]

PKH -> RE: Struggling in the Low Countries (12/12/2011 8:40:49 PM)

The southern battlegroup won't meet as much resistance, so I used that to take the objectives in the south, west and northwest. These are weakly defended. The southern force just goes west to the southwest objective, then north, bypassing all regular cities. The northern force will only take a couple of objectives and I sent a couple of units up from the southern force to help out with the 2 last central objectives. I think I had ~4 fighters, ~6 tanks, ~4 artillery, ~6 infantry grenadiers and engineers. The aux. paratroopers I used to blow up the forts, and hold the occupied VL's near them.

RzM1939 -> RE: Struggling in the Low Countries (12/12/2011 10:31:32 PM)


Just lost again though.
Done with this game.  If I can't even get through on normal mode, probably don't deserve to be playing.  Just stupid I guess.

PKH -> RE: Struggling in the Low Countries (12/13/2011 10:41:50 AM)

In case you want to try again, I'll write some tips on how I take cities:
1. First destroy any supporting artillery with tanks, recon, infantry or bombers. There is usually no point in attacking if you will be counterattacked by artillery. If you have enough artillery, you can suppress theirs instead.
2. Try to have 2 artillery within range. Suppress the defenders with artillery (might take more than 1 shot), attack with engineers. Follow up with more artillery and infantry or tanks.

I also do get frustrated by this game, but mostly by limitations regarding starting units, placement of units and number of units. I don't like the scenario designers dictating my strategy.

RzM1939 -> RE: Struggling in the Low Countries (12/14/2011 2:45:07 AM)

Against better judgement, tried one last time. By turn 18 only had 3 objectives and lost over half my force.

Guess this game's not for me.

Three4Flinching -> RE: Struggling in the Low Countries (12/14/2011 9:09:53 AM)

Is it only me or did the game get harder after the new patch? I canīt even get a decisive victory on the first scenario at the second difficulty anymore, and at the low countries I get blown to peices.[:(] 

PKH -> RE: Struggling in the Low Countries (12/14/2011 9:40:09 AM)

If you lose lots of units, it sounds like you're not reinforcing them in the field.
Just in case you don't know, you can also replace lost units during the mission, and often there's room to buy a couple at the start of a scenario.

PKH -> RE: Struggling in the Low Countries (12/14/2011 9:54:28 AM)

I did Poland and France yesterday and it didn't feel much different. For Poland I got 2 extra artillery, a fighter, and engineers. Couldn't afford transportation for the enigneers, so they didn't contribute much.

MisterMax -> RE: Struggling in the Low Countries (12/14/2011 1:39:19 PM)

Don't give up!!! It's a really nice game.
One VERY important tip was already mentioned by another player.
DON'T take Brussels until the last moment. Leave the hexes next to Brussels free as well. As long as Brussels is free (and preferably the French objective to the southwest of it too) the computer will buy new units next to those for its prestige points and is less inclined to stack AA and AT (with a VERY irritating artillery behind it) around the far objectives. Basically the idea for strategy is a big encirclement and leave the centre objectives for last.
I suggest if you drop para's (core unit para) do that at the furthest city below that small river (NOT an objective city) and take it. I mean the city in the southwest corner of the map. then within two turns you can buy units there. If you leave your extra core slots (I think that's 2? for this scenario) open you can buy two artillery. Your tanks on the south should be able to reach the far objectives within about 8 turns. As long as Brussels is still allied, you will be able to take the far objectives with 2 artillery, two-three tanks, 1 para and 1 inf.
Keep in mind though, my strategy always depends on air superiority! Thats's why I always favor plenty of fighter units.
And don't forget: The low countries is one of the toughest in the game to get a decisive!!! That was already the case with the old panzer general series...
Good luck, just give it one more try (and then one more ...and then another one ;)

pandafulo -> RE: Struggling in the Low Countries (4/19/2012 3:18:13 PM)

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