German tank losses and 1942 panzer divisions (Full Version)

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Klydon -> German tank losses and 1942 panzer divisions (6/26/2011 3:51:20 PM)

First, my usual disclaimer: I am not a Axis "fanboy". I play both sides and am more interested in helping create a good game for both sides, etc than anything else.

Watching some of the recent AAR's and with my own current experience with the Germans in a AAR, it seems German tank losses are up quite a bit. Some of it could be attributed to this with the anti-tank rifles damaging a lot of German tanks. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2821022 I know Pavel is aware of this and was going to look at it, but anti-tank rifles were fairly worthless vs regular tanks. Armored cars, small tanks like the Pz-II, etc no issues, but vs Pz III and IV? Not so much and especially not in terms of the amount of damaged tanks shown here.

Each turn, you can read what happen to the damaged tanks on the event log. Some are repaired and returned to service and others are not repairable and considered lost. My question/concern is does the game see all damaged tanks as being the same? If so, then this could explain the high attrition of German tanks. A lot get damaged by ATR's and then a bunch of those are destroyed during the repair mechanic even tho at most what likely happen was a track got shot off.

At then end of my 1941 offensive, I went looking through my panzer divisions to see which ones I could pull out and refit over winter and retain elite status. Much to my shock, I have 1 division that may fit that criteria. No way on the rest. Now, this leads to another issue. Obviously elite status is very important to the Germans from an offensive standpoint of view and mobility in enemy territory. Considering that ToE's change and new equipment is introduced, this basically means I can have a German unit do nothing and from what I can figure out, they will lose their elite status when their equipment changes. If that is the case, that doesn't make sense (my tankers didn't get dumber upgrading from a PZ-IIIg to a PZ-IIIj).




ComradeP -> RE: German tank losses and 1942 panzer divisions (6/26/2011 4:04:22 PM)

What do you mean when you say "elite status"? Aside from GD, there are no elite non-SS mobile units in 1941.




Klydon -> RE: German tank losses and 1942 panzer divisions (6/26/2011 4:09:00 PM)

85 or better moral. 




ComradeP -> RE: German tank losses and 1942 panzer divisions (6/26/2011 4:25:34 PM)

86 or better morale, if you mean that it only costs 1 extra MP to enter an enemy hex.

The main thing you can do about keeping mobile unit morale high, is minimize their number of retreats. With some recent changes, I believe units don't necessarily lose morale when they retreat, but still: morale will go down eventually if your mobile units are exposed to counterattacks all the time. If you keep them out in the open during the first winter, you're guaranteed to end up with units with less than 86 morale.




herwin -> RE: German tank losses and 1942 panzer divisions (6/26/2011 4:29:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

What do you mean when you say "elite status"? Aside from GD, there are no elite non-SS mobile units in 1941.


SS performance was not based on elite skill. It was based on high cohesion and high raw troop quality--their training and skill was often inferior to that of German Army units. The cohesion mechanism was similar to that seen in the Japanese armed forces--someone always picked up the LMG. High raw troop quality was basically that privates would have been sergeants in most armies; corporals, lieutenants; sergeants, captains; etc. Germany could have organised between three and ten times as many divisions by utilising the SS manpower more appropriately.




Klydon -> RE: German tank losses and 1942 panzer divisions (6/26/2011 4:50:51 PM)

Sorry Comrade P, 86 moral is what I meant. Retreats are part of it. Not taking care of your units in the winter absolutely will play a role. Even using them a lot (and winning) with the eventual attrition the elements take, the replacements will drag the units "moral" down. Taking a lot of extra tank losses you potentially should not be taking just makes it worse.  




Q-Ball -> RE: German tank losses and 1942 panzer divisions (6/26/2011 5:42:10 PM)

Do replacements lower the Morale of a unit? I didn't think they did. They lower EXPERIENCE, but not MORALE. Right?[&:]

I understand your point Klydon on tank losses, it can get fairly high for the Germans (and Soviets, but because they make more they probably just feel it less).

The Germans need to keep top mobile units out of the open in the first Blizzard. The first unit I would send to Poland, for example, is the GD Mot Regt. It has 90 Morale; as a Regt, it has limited combat value in Winter, but come spring it expands to a large Division. You want that large Division to have a high morale. Germans players should NEVER use that unit in the Blizzard, IMO.

Same for other Panzer Units, though it's probably unrealistic to save them ALL.




JAMiAM -> RE: German tank losses and 1942 panzer divisions (6/26/2011 6:05:51 PM)

Replacement experience does NOT drag down morale. Morale is an upper bound for experience, and limits how much experience the components can train up to.




cookie monster -> RE: German tank losses and 1942 panzer divisions (6/26/2011 6:11:13 PM)

On the wiki the first winters rules are laid out.

Every attack costs the Axis units a morale penalty, so you may have a morale problem with your panzers morale come Spring if you've been using them for firefighting purposes.




ComradeP -> RE: German tank losses and 1942 panzer divisions (6/26/2011 6:11:49 PM)

quote:

SS performance was not based on elite skill. It was based on high cohesion and high raw troop quality--their training and skill was often inferior to that of German Army units. The cohesion mechanism was similar to that seen in the Japanese armed forces--someone always picked up the LMG. High raw troop quality was basically that privates would have been sergeants in most armies; corporals, lieutenants; sergeants, captains; etc. Germany could have organised between three and ten times as many divisions by utilising the SS manpower more appropriately.


1) I'm talking about how it works in the game. It would really help if you would do the same, instead of posting random bits of information that may or may not actually have anything to do with the discussion.

2) There's no way in hell the Germans could've raised 3 to 10 times as many effective divisions in the war as they actually raised, as they already seriously inflated their number of divisions during the actual war. There is also no way 3 to 10 times as many SS divisions could've been raised early in the war without drawing on the at the time far less suitable manpower pool of the Allgemeine SS.




WilliePete -> RE: German tank losses and 1942 panzer divisions (6/27/2011 12:01:50 AM)

ComradeP, isn't the 78th Sturm Division an Elite unit? I do know if you check it in the editor it's listed as "Axis-Elite" even though moral and experience are 80...




WilliePete -> RE: German tank losses and 1942 panzer divisions (6/27/2011 12:03:20 AM)

oops - sorry for the double-post.




ComradeP -> RE: German tank losses and 1942 panzer divisions (6/27/2011 8:03:04 AM)

quote:

ComradeP, isn't the 78th Sturm Division an Elite unit?


It's elite, but it's an infantry division, not a mobile unit. Their morale should increase to 90 in 1941, even without combat.




Bletchley_Geek -> RE: German tank losses and 1942 panzer divisions (6/27/2011 10:01:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon
Watching some of the recent AAR's and with my own current experience with the Germans in a AAR, it seems German tank losses are up quite a bit. Some of it could be attributed to this with the anti-tank rifles damaging a lot of German tanks. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2821022 I know Pavel is aware of this and was going to look at it, but anti-tank rifles were fairly worthless vs regular tanks. Armored cars, small tanks like the Pz-II, etc no issues, but vs Pz III and IV? Not so much and especially not in terms of the amount of damaged tanks shown here.

Each turn, you can read what happen to the damaged tanks on the event log. Some are repaired and returned to service and others are not repairable and considered lost. My question/concern is does the game see all damaged tanks as being the same? If so, then this could explain the high attrition of German tanks. A lot get damaged by ATR's and then a bunch of those are destroyed during the repair mechanic even tho at most what likely happen was a track got shot off.


My experience - as German - points just the opposite. Either in the attack or in the defense (as reserves), PzIIIx models are plainly outclassed in 1942, when facing the T-34, Soviet light tanks and a general increase in availability of 76mm AT arty pieces. They kill many Soviet tanks but they also suffer considerable losses (though something like 75% of them are recovered). During the summer of 1942 you should expect a tank loss ratio of 2:1 to 1.5:1.

Things dramatically change as the PzIVf2, PzIVg, upgunned Stugs and 88mm AT guns start to get deployed to your front combat and support units. Then the loss exchange can get really in favour of the German army - in some turns I've zapped over 600 Russian tanks for just 90 of them (about a 60-40 split between Soviet light tanks and medium tanks). The qualitative difference entailed by the new equipment became obvious when I analyzed the performance of fresh Panzer divisions coming from Germany - 6th, 7th, 27th - and those assigned to sectors with low activity - 18. Armee armor, 9. Armee armor - and units that have been heavily engaged from June to January 1943. The latter tend to perform much better - and suffer much less attrition - not due to Morale or experience, which is about equal, but because of the latter having had the summer losses replaced by the new equipment.




fcam1387 -> RE: German tank losses and 1942 panzer divisions (6/27/2011 1:53:10 PM)

Once morale falls below 85%, is it possible to raise it back to that level? How do you do it?




ComradeP -> RE: German tank losses and 1942 panzer divisions (6/27/2011 1:59:04 PM)

In 1941, German elite units can just wait until they get to 90 morale again. In 1942, they can still get to 85% so you only need to win some battles to get to 86%, on average.

For everybody else, winning lots of battles is the only way and it's not a guarantee. I've seen units with few wins and great morale increases and units with lots of wins with only a small morale increase. In a test game, in 24 turns the Panzer division with the highest amount of wins went from 90 to 95 morale with 82 wins and no lost battles. On the other hand, a motorized division went from 90 to 98 morale with just 22 wins.




fcam1387 -> RE: German tank losses and 1942 panzer divisions (6/27/2011 2:44:18 PM)

Ok, thanks. How long does it take to recover morale, roughly? For example, it's March 42 in my game and I have a few Panzer divisions on around 70 morale. Will they be able to recover before my summer offensive?




ComradeP -> RE: German tank losses and 1942 panzer divisions (6/27/2011 4:11:40 PM)

They'll recover to 70 automatically as that's the national morale for 1942. For more morale, they'd need to make successful attacks, although there's still a small chance that their morale will eventually increase to 75 over time if they are in a very good supply state.




JAMiAM -> RE: German tank losses and 1942 panzer divisions (6/27/2011 5:20:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcam1387

Ok, thanks. How long does it take to recover morale, roughly? For example, it's March 42 in my game and I have a few Panzer divisions on around 70 morale. Will they be able to recover before my summer offensive?


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

They'll recover to 70 automatically as that's the national morale for 1942. For more morale, they'd need to make successful attacks, although there's still a small chance that their morale will eventually increase to 75 over time if they are in a very good supply state.


This is not precisely true. In order to qualify for any of the morale gain conditions, the unit must first pass a die(75) check against its current morale. That die roll must be greater than the unit's existing morale before any of the other checks are made, and morale gains applied. Thus, if you've got a unit with 70 morale, then you only have a 5/75 chance to gain any morale, whether from refitting, NM differentials, good supply state, etc.

This diminishing return is what keeps the German Army from bouncing back if it's been soundly thrashed by the Soviets in the Winter. Perversely, units with really bad morale have a much greater chance to regain morale than good units. In my opinion, the die(75) precondition for any morale gain should be done away with. That would at least allow units to freely gain morale up to their current NM level, per the rate listed in the rules.




ComradeP -> RE: German tank losses and 1942 panzer divisions (6/27/2011 8:09:19 PM)

James, as before, you're confusing national morale with the "increase morale to 75 when in good supply/support conditions" rule. What I said is correct.




Q-Ball -> RE: German tank losses and 1942 panzer divisions (6/27/2011 8:57:24 PM)

You guys are confusing us.....

So, will the Wehrmacht get back up to 70 Morale generally in 1942,and if so, how fast?





JAMiAM -> RE: German tank losses and 1942 panzer divisions (6/27/2011 9:58:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

James, as before, you're confusing national morale with the "increase morale to 75 when in good supply/support conditions" rule. What I said is correct.

No, it isn't Pieter. Pavel clarified this in a development thread. The die(75) roll is necessary for any other morale improvements to take hold. The manual entry is misleading.




JAMiAM -> RE: German tank losses and 1942 panzer divisions (6/27/2011 10:15:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

You guys are confusing us.....

So, will the Wehrmacht get back up to 70 Morale generally in 1942,and if so, how fast?



It can, and how fast depends. I know this is vague, but it is virtually impossible to answer any better than to explain what is happening. In order for a particular unit to qualify to receive any of the various morale increases listed in the manual, what needs to first happen is that unit makes a die(75) roll > current unit morale. If, and only if, it passes this first check, does it check against any of the other conditions which might grant a morale increase. Thus, if a unit is at 60 morale, it has a 15/75 chance of being eligible for the applicable morale increases specified in the manual. If a unit is at 70 morale, it only has a 5/75 chance at being eligible for any morale increases.

So, how long it will take is dependent on the delta between unit morale and 75 to begin with. From there, it is a matter of meeting the other necessary preconditions, while not suffering at the hands of your enemy.

In short, it could be a long while...[:D]




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