The Philippine Army (Full Version)

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el cid again -> The Philippine Army (6/13/2011 1:27:30 AM)

The Philippine Army, in common with most things in the stock data set, is far better represented than
it was in the original WITP. Nevertheless, there appear to be significant problems. Two units -
45th Regiment Philippine Scouts and 101st Division, Philippine Army, appear to be present twice,
as complete formations and as sub formations. Two regiments are detached from 71st and 91st
Divisions - in place of two battalions from 62nd and 82nd - in the Vsayas, but only one Division
has been reduced (never mind it lost 1/3 of its elements), and even then, the regiment took more
heavy weapons than were deducted. Both these division should be at more or less full strength
(if that ever applies to a PA Division). Two independent battalions of the 11th are missing altogether
(or perhaps considered to be included in the parent, which should not be as strong as it is -
aside from being at full strength never mind the 3/12th is correctly shown at Tuecuegerrao,
it also has some PS squads - which might be correct - but nothing I have indicates that - including
the nearest thing to an official history - The Philippine Army by an academic). The missing battalions
might matter - one is at Balinta Pass - present in the game but not called that - and the other is at
San Fernando - where the entire division is shown (entirely incorrectly).

11th Division is shown in most references as at Linguyan Gulf - and that is more or less correct. It has
the right flank of the 21st - and it indeed is supposed to move elements (in isolated strong points) all the
way to Buang - where the Naguilian Road leaves Highway 1 - SOUTH of San Fernando. While that is,
I suppose, in the San Fernando hex - the division never got into position. When the Japanese came ashore
at Buang and Agoo and another point farther South - there was NO opposition at all. The commander of
Fort John Hay was coming down the Naguilian Road at the time - to back up the defenses with his small
garrison - and he recorded the situation that night/morning on maps which are still at the museum on the
fort grounds. [I was given permission to copy them] Accounts on the Philippine side square with Japanese
reports - clearly the 11th was not in position along highway 1 - and by morning it is SE of Linguyan Gulf -
and unwilling to stand on any line on any occasion - giving way as soon as IJA units make contact for the
next several days. Showing this unit over strength probably is a mistake in terms of its performance,
never mind in terms of what was missing from it. Since this one division is binary - having an entire regiment
detached - it migth be represented as the other two regiments instead as a single formation.

81st Division (- one battalion) is at Cebu as shown, but 61st (also - 1 battalion) is at Bacolod, not as shown.
The battalions detached are at Tacloban and Tagbularan, in place of the regiments shown in stock. Numbers
of other units are out of place, including 31st Division - which is in the Subic Hex - and 71st - which is covering
the Eastern flank of Linguyan Gulf and Clark. The Philippine Scouts Cavalry is at Linguyan and if memory serves
the PF 45th Infantry moved to stiffen the position. I also think a tank regiment tried to stiffen the line - although
wether this is still in the Linguyan hex is not clear?

More critically, perhaps, than the unit details, is that most of the North Luzon Force is ordered in the database
to plan to defend Bataan AND to move there. This is why the whole force vanishes under AI control. While
War Plan Orange DID plan to defend Bataan since the WWI era, Mac changed that - and these units were to
defend and reinforce defenses otherwise - and really did try. IF the units are NOT ordered to plan for Bataan
and ordered to move there - AI makes a creditable defense - about as long as history - as the Japanese must
fight their way from Linguyan on - not just walk over empty hexes.




Andy Mac -> RE: The Philippine Army (6/13/2011 2:53:56 PM)

?? Sorry whats the point on the AI not sure I understand can you clarify what did the AI do wrong.

p.s. which script were you playing and how many times did you run it




Andy Mac -> RE: The Philippine Army (6/13/2011 3:04:46 PM)

Don and Joel are the PI experts so I would ask them




Don Bowen -> RE: The Philippine Army (6/13/2011 3:50:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Don and Joel are the PI experts so I would ask them


Don has wasted hours answering Sid on these same issues.

The author he quotes is apparently Ricardo Trota Jose. Jose's history of the Philippine army is a social/political study of the period from formation until the start of the war. It has little tactical or TOE data, and I'd love to see a page reference for the tactical dispositions quoted above. I'd look them up in my copy of the book.

As to the commander of Camp John Hay, Col. John P. Horan did not move toward Lingayan. He sat at Baguio, requested permission to retire, and did so when authorized on Dec 24th. By then the Kennon road was closed, so Horan attempted to withdraw over the mountain to Highway 5. Horan and his assistant, Col Bonnet each led a portion of the garrison, but neither made it through. Bonnet's detachment found their way blocked and dispersed into the jungle. A few made it to Bataan, others ended up with the guerillas.

Horan returned to Baguio to find C troop/26th had arrived. The conduct of Horan and his officers was in stark contrast to the officers and men of the 26th. Horan send A Company/43rd under a Captain Glitter to block the Naguilian Road. However, Glitter retired on the first evening, without contact, fearing he might be outflanked. Prior to this a patrol of five troopers from the 26th. lead by a PFC reconnoitered the same road all the way to Naguilian without contacting any Japanese. The Japanese had passed through Naguilian the day before but left no garrison.

Horan, by the way, wrote two diaries. One during the period between December 25th (after his return from a failed retreat) and the surrender. The other many years later (about 1960). The first is full of day to day activities, apparently including a lot about his meals. The second is a longer narration that explains how others failed him and delves on the weaknesses he perceived in his subordinates. For his actions, he earned the nickname the colonel Who Ran from the filipino troops in Baguio.

So, before I go back to Green Button, let me advise readers to question the details of Sid's posts unless he gives references that can be verified.

(edit)

Lest I be guilty of the same issue, here are the references I used:

Fall of the Philippines, US Army "Green Book" by Louis Morton
The Philippine Army 1935-1942 by Ricardo Trota Jose
The Intrepid Guerrillas of North Luzon by Bernard Norling
and, to a lesser extent:
Triumph in the Philippines by Celedonia Ancheta
Liberation of the Ilocos by Celedonia Ancheta.




Nikademus -> RE: The Philippine Army (6/13/2011 3:53:34 PM)

Listen for the sound of the crickets whenever Sid declares that another mod/correction/change is needed in AE.




Rainer -> RE: The Philippine Army (6/13/2011 5:39:28 PM)

quote:

Listen for the sound of the crickets whenever Sid declares that another mod/correction/change is needed in AE.


Can you repeat that in English please?
Honestly, non native speakers (like me) don't understand what you mean with "sound of the crickets".

EDIT: which isn't entirely true. I think I know what you mean [;)]

EDIT2: Nikademus kindly responded via PM (not to hijack this thread).




Nikademus -> RE: The Philippine Army (6/13/2011 5:55:30 PM)

[;)]

The AE Team's research is solid. Perfect? of course not, but solid....hence the interest level, at least from the direction of the AE Team itself whenever Sid declares a ongoing improvement/change/correction etc will be negligable to non-existant....like a bad comedian who's punchlines are greeted with silence. Don's response said it all.





Rainer -> RE: The Philippine Army (6/13/2011 6:35:59 PM)

quote:

Don's response said it all


Right.




el cid again -> RE: The Philippine Army (6/14/2011 2:04:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

?? Sorry whats the point on the AI not sure I understand can you clarify what did the AI do wrong.

p.s. which script were you playing and how many times did you run it


In a sense, AI just does what it is told by the data in the database - not sure the AI is wrong?
The data says to many units in Luzon "plan to defend Bataan" and more than that "move to Bataan"
Now that may well be the design intent of whoever wrote the data? Surely it was the case in WITP,
and here again it remains the case. Instead of ordering the units to stand and defend as was the case,
the game just says "you must run" and "you must revert to historical War Plan Orange thinking" from the
first day. So when the game begins - the units run to Bataan. And do not have to fight - as was done -
holding open a path for other units to get there.

I found that merely ripping out those move to Bataan orders, and saying "defend the hex you are in"
gives an AI opponent a much more difficult time - in that it takes longer to convince PA to run for the penninsula.
I did put in a missing battalion at Balinta Pass - and the 71st and 91st Divisions cover the lowland flank of Clark -
both of which may also help prevent the enemy from just walking in and taking over.




el cid again -> RE: The Philippine Army (6/14/2011 2:18:09 AM)


Since I was not born until 1946, I was not there at the time, and cannot testify from memory who went where? But at least I have
gone to Fort John Hay, spent time examining the original documents there, including the rather simple but clear Army style maps
drawn by the commander - which as far as I know have never been published. The curator says as far as she knows no one else
ever made copies, and it required special permission to do so - so there should be a record. You may elect to believe what you please.
This was not just a base, but the fledgling Philippine Military Academy, with its attendent staff, was also nearby (not yet at the Fort,
because facilities were not yet built, it was at Teacher Camp). Apparently, before taking everyone to the North (non-malarial, rice country,
with many mountains) to operate as irregulars, he decided to see what might be done by advancing down the Naguilian Road? By means
I do not know, he was able to establish the 11th Division was then well to the South of him - and SE of the Gulf - and the entire coast
had been taken with virtually no resistence. People who live in Buang and Agoo, which were major langing sites, say there was no battle,
no defensive positions, and even that there were agents acting as guides. These people think they were Filipino, but I suspect possibly
Nakano School agents in country. I myself have taken a canoe along the entire coast, and examined the beaches and infrastructure -
including the RR before it was abandoned in the North. The road is substantially the same as it was - the bridges pre date the war and are
rated in the cement as 10 t - which I interpret to mean 10 tons. I have personal connections near Naguilian - and my father in law was
a scout for US forces in 1944 in this area.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Don and Joel are the PI experts so I would ask them


Don has wasted hours answering Sid on these same issues.

The author he quotes is apparently Ricardo Trota Jose. Jose's history of the Philippine army is a social/political study of the period from formation until the start of the war. It has little tactical or TOE data, and I'd love to see a page reference for the tactical dispositions quoted above. I'd look them up in my copy of the book.

As to the commander of Camp John Hay, Col. John P. Horan did not move toward Lingayan. He sat at Baguio, requested permission to retire, and did so when authorized on Dec 24th. By then the Kennon road was closed, so Horan attempted to withdraw over the mountain to Highway 5. Horan and his assistant, Col Bonnet each led a portion of the garrison, but neither made it through. Bonnet's detachment found their way blocked and dispersed into the jungle. A few made it to Bataan, others ended up with the guerillas.

Horan returned to Baguio to find C troop/26th had arrived. The conduct of Horan and his officers was in stark contrast to the officers and men of the 26th. Horan send A Company/43rd under a Captain Glitter to block the Naguilian Road. However, Glitter retired on the first evening, without contact, fearing he might be outflanked. Prior to this a patrol of five troopers from the 26th. lead by a PFC reconnoitered the same road all the way to Naguilian without contacting any Japanese. The Japanese had passed through Naguilian the day before but left no garrison.

Horan, by the way, wrote two diaries. One during the period between December 25th (after his return from a failed retreat) and the surrender. The other many years later (about 1960). The first is full of day to day activities, apparently including a lot about his meals. The second is a longer narration that explains how others failed him and delves on the weaknesses he perceived in his subordinates. For his actions, he earned the nickname the colonel Who Ran from the filipino troops in Baguio.

So, before I go back to Green Button, let me advise readers to question the details of Sid's posts unless he gives references that can be verified.

(edit)

Lest I be guilty of the same issue, here are the references I used:

Fall of the Philippines, US Army "Green Book" by Louis Morton
The Philippine Army 1935-1942 by Ricardo Trota Jose
The Intrepid Guerrillas of North Luzon by Bernard Norling
and, to a lesser extent:
Triumph in the Philippines by Celedonia Ancheta
Liberation of the Ilocos by Celedonia Ancheta.





el cid again -> RE: The Philippine Army (6/14/2011 2:37:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Don and Joel are the PI experts so I would ask them


Don has wasted hours answering Sid on these same issues.

The author he quotes is apparently Ricardo Trota Jose. Jose's history of the Philippine army is a social/political study of the period from formation until the start of the war. It has little tactical or TOE data, and I'd love to see a page reference for the tactical dispositions quoted above. I'd look them up in my copy of the book.

As to the commander of Camp John Hay, Col. John P. Horan did not move toward Lingayan. He sat at Baguio, requested permission to retire, and did so when authorized on Dec 24th. By then the Kennon road was closed, so Horan attempted to withdraw over the mountain to Highway 5. Horan and his assistant, Col Bonnet each led a portion of the garrison, but neither made it through. Bonnet's detachment found their way blocked and dispersed into the jungle. A few made it to Bataan, others ended up with the guerillas.

Horan returned to Baguio to find C troop/26th had arrived. The conduct of Horan and his officers was in stark contrast to the officers and men of the 26th. Horan send A Company/43rd under a Captain Glitter to block the Naguilian Road. However, Glitter retired on the first evening, without contact, fearing he might be outflanked. Prior to this a patrol of five troopers from the 26th. lead by a PFC reconnoitered the same road all the way to Naguilian without contacting any Japanese. The Japanese had passed through Naguilian the day before but left no garrison.

Horan, by the way, wrote two diaries. One during the period between December 25th (after his return from a failed retreat) and the surrender. The other many years later (about 1960). The first is full of day to day activities, apparently including a lot about his meals. The second is a longer narration that explains how others failed him and delves on the weaknesses he perceived in his subordinates. For his actions, he earned the nickname the colonel Who Ran from the filipino troops in Baguio.

So, before I go back to Green Button, let me advise readers to question the details of Sid's posts unless he gives references that can be verified.

(edit)

Lest I be guilty of the same issue, here are the references I used:

Fall of the Philippines, US Army "Green Book" by Louis Morton
The Philippine Army 1935-1942 by Ricardo Trota Jose
The Intrepid Guerrillas of North Luzon by Bernard Norling
and, to a lesser extent:
Triumph in the Philippines by Celedonia Ancheta
Liberation of the Ilocos by Celedonia Ancheta.



It does not take much effort - just look at the database - to see only one battalion of troops on the map in the North. Nor much
effort to see that the Waynewright posted another battalion at Balinta Pass - which he felt was a position that it could defend
"against a considerable force" - it is in virtually every history. But as for the original maps - even if I sent them - the nay sayers
in this croud would allege I had a map making factory. And, indeed, I do make maps, although not of this sort, and I could not
be bothered to learn how? But one COULD always go to Fort John Hay and view the originals - or write the curator of the museum
(with the incredibly simple name of Fort John Hay Museum) - to verify they are identical - which they are. As for trusting original
sources - people who were actually there - that is a radical concept I learned as a student from a US Army historian who said it
was not popular. I didn't believe him - but perhaps I should have?

I can verify the low opinion of the Filipinos of the officer in question. I am less critical myself. There are many considerations in
a command situation. When faced with a large and powerful enemy, and when own forces are relatively green and inexperienced,
one might be prudent not to engage in main. When at Fort Richardson, near my home today, training with state troops, we were
asked what to do if we saw a major column of Russian soldiers coming down Alaska Highway 1? I was the only one to say
"Hide, establish radio communications, and report what we see" - and the only officer present who was considered to have an idea
that would not get our small MP element wiped out. The guy may have been wise rather than cowardly.




Don Bowen -> RE: The Philippine Army (6/14/2011 3:09:41 AM)


Sid, I know you have a lot of interest and have done extensive research. I'm also sure you have quite a bit of very useful information. Some of it undoubtably should be in the game. Some of it is too detailed for 40-mile hexes. Don't know what else to say.




m10bob -> RE: The Philippine Army (6/14/2011 12:30:11 PM)

http://www.pacificwrecks.com/provinces/philippines_john_hay.html




Terminus -> RE: The Philippine Army (6/14/2011 6:38:35 PM)

Some people are incapable of telling the truth even if it would benefit them, and this individual is one of them. No use trying to tilt at windmills, MO.




Terminus -> RE: The Philippine Army (6/14/2011 7:54:10 PM)

Sid can't break anything with his insipid barking and whining, because the game will not be changed based upon it.

If he wants to make his mod, that's his right, just like everybody else. All the people who count know that he's a lying weasel.




Buck Beach -> RE: The Philippine Army (6/14/2011 10:05:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Sid can't break anything with his insipid barking and whining, because the game will not be changed based upon them.

If he wants to make his mod, that's his right, just like everybody else. All the people who count know that he's a lying weasel.


You know Term baby I haven't liked anything about you for over 5 years even with your 37218 posts. You set back and apply your "rolling eye" smiley and snippets as if you were God's gift to this board and the world.

Here's a secret for you that I am sure you can't conceive, you are just as annoying as Sid. And, even though Sid's posts maybe lies (according to you) at least they have content. Something that yours never do. [8|][8|][8|][8|][8|][8|][8|][8|][8|][8|][8|][8|][8|]

How's is that for a troll/flame rule breaker, I figure if you can do it with every post I should be able to get away with it once.

Have a nice day Term baby!

Buck




Terminus -> RE: The Philippine Army (6/14/2011 10:47:01 PM)

If you haven't "liked me" for "five years", I find it curious that you haven't clicked the little green button. Maybe you're confused?

I certainly green-buttoned you several months ago, and only saw that post because I was browsing without logging in first.

Guess you're not sure how you feel... Maybe you should go away, find yourself, and not worry so much over things you have no knowledge about.




Buck Beach -> RE: The Philippine Army (6/14/2011 11:03:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

If you haven't "liked me" for "five years", I find it curious that you haven't clicked the little green button. Maybe you're confused?

I certainly green-buttoned you several months ago, and only saw that post because I was browsing without logging in first.

Guess you're not sure how you feel... Maybe you should go away, find yourself, and not worry so much over things you have no knowledge about.


Oh I haven't tried avoiding you, I just don't like you. If you like playing the ostrich game, well that's the difference between you and I.

Oh, BTW I'm going no where (maybe in life but not as far as disappearing from the board) which I am sure is much to your dismay. That is unless they ban me, which I have no control over.

Check,

Buck




Buck Beach -> RE: The Philippine Army (6/14/2011 11:14:37 PM)

Aghhhhhh!!! I just realized he said he "Green Button" me. Oh the inhumanity.[:D]

One wonders why he just didn't "Green Button" Sid long ago (like years)???




Buck Beach -> RE: The Philippine Army (6/14/2011 11:15:49 PM)

I guess I had seriously better cool it. I'm done.




darbymcd -> RE: The Philippine Army (6/15/2011 12:25:21 AM)

Ok, this is a bit much. Look I understand why people are rather unimpressed with the way Sid has re-introduced himself to the WitP community. I do see that in many ways he can be irritating in manner, and speak with a confidence that is unwarrented by his amount of knowledge of the current iteration of the game. Fair enough.

But he is not a liar, or a bad person out to ruin anyones day, or harm the reputation of WitP among new comers. He has a specific idea of how he would like the game to play, and wants to make a mod in this image. cool enough, like Terminus said, it is his perogative. So this very personal attack and counter-attack is completely disproportionate to what is going on and completely unfair to Sid. Lets be honest, there is something about wargames, especially very detail oriented ones, that attract people who... have more strength in reciting trivia than in social skills shall we say. And the internet gives this imbalance free reign. So we have to separate out what is the message and what is the style when we respond to each other here. So yes, there are... imperfections in what he understands about the game, but respond to that and not his sort of dismissive style. And the same for Terminus.

Ok, lets hug it out!!!!!




oldman45 -> RE: The Philippine Army (6/15/2011 12:39:28 AM)

Darby, that was a great post, till you talked about hugs [:'(]




Buck Beach -> RE: The Philippine Army (6/15/2011 12:43:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: darbymcd

Ok, this is a bit much. Look I understand why people are rather unimpressed with the way Sid has re-introduced himself to the WitP community. I do see that in many ways he can be irritating in manner, and speak with a confidence that is unwarrented by his amount of knowledge of the current iteration of the game. Fair enough.

But he is not a liar, or a bad person out to ruin anyones day, or harm the reputation of WitP among new comers. He has a specific idea of how he would like the game to play, and wants to make a mod in this image. cool enough, like Terminus said, it is his perogative. So this very personal attack and counter-attack is completely disproportionate to what is going on and completely unfair to Sid. Lets be honest, there is something about wargames, especially very detail oriented ones, that attract people who... have more strength in reciting trivia than in social skills shall we say. And the internet gives this imbalance free reign. So we have to separate out what is the message and what is the style when we respond to each other here. So yes, there are... imperfections in what he understands about the game, but respond to that and not his sort of dismissive style. And the same for Terminus.

Ok, lets hug it out!!!!!


I hear you and totally agree with regards to Sid (truth or exaggerated persona) HOWVEVER, Term is not deserving of any consideration. Sid never attacks and maintains himself in a a civil manner. This is a quality completely absent with Term.

Buck




Don Bowen -> RE: The Philippine Army (6/15/2011 12:47:45 AM)


Oh shut up the bunch of you!




Buck Beach -> RE: The Philippine Army (6/15/2011 12:56:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


Oh shut up the bunch of you!



OK




Yakface -> RE: The Philippine Army (6/20/2011 4:57:16 PM)

Oops - wrong one




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