IJA Armor units (Full Version)

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el cid again -> IJA Armor units (5/30/2011 9:44:15 PM)

Long ago, Joe Wilkerson and I did research on IJA Airborne and Armor units
This research seems to have eluded the AE data set
There is also a new publication to add to the set

World War II Japanese Tank Tactics (Osprey)

Japanese armor units were unique and unusual in that they had far more support
than was normal. Japanese people did not know how to drive, and were not
backyard mechanics as was common in the US or UK - so they put all sorts of
trained people into units - and spares - I mean entire tanks as spares - complete
with crews! But Duprey says - everything counts in the sum total of a unit -
in combat - the commander can press anyone and everything into service.

A Tank Regiment TO&E was typically

31 light tanks (not always current, but changing over time)
62 medium tanks (same same)
11 gun tanks (not in AE data set as far as I see - tank chassis without normal
turrets - bigger guns - open tops - minimal armor)
11 engineer squads (motorized or mechanized) which have both recovery
and assault functions (not in data set either as such)
23 motorized (or mechanized) infantry squads
90 support teams

An independent tank company was typically
10 tanks
3 squads of motorized infantry
13 support teams

In both cases, excluding HQ and comm assets we do not deal with in this system.

And full Japanese Cavalry BRIGADES (not allied to the Japanese but IJA) - at the start of
the war - include a tank company - 7 to 9 light tanks - do not ask me why it varied?
[Three brigades, 7, 8 and 9 tanks, respectively] Maybe money? Maybe command unit
preference? Two platoons of 3, plus HQ platoon of 1, 2 or 3 more.



JWE -> RE: IJA Armor units (5/30/2011 11:39:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again
Long ago, Joe Wilkerson and I did research on IJA Airborne and Armor units
This research seems to have eluded the AE data set
There is also a new publication to add to the set

What a piece of nonsense. Joe knows you are a joke and anyone involved in AE developmennt thinks the same way. I was a developer. We thought you were a joke. I was a developer. If Joe or anybody else had anything to say from you, we would have known about it. There was nothing. You didn't talk to Joe (unless in your dreams). You didn't talk to anybody. You sure as hell didn't talk to me. We all knew you were worthless and kept as far from you as we could. You are a lying piece of crap that doesn't deserve any recognition from any real developers .



el cid again -> RE: IJA Armor units (5/31/2011 12:10:28 AM)

If you had any sense of the rules of the board, you would not write such things.
If you had any sense of honor, when called on for breaking the rules you agree to abide by,
you would modify or withdraw the post.
And you do not know what you speak of. I met Joe as my "supervisor" in the "CHS" project.
Specifically working on Japanese planes. He was already substantially done with Japanese
ground units - and we only added a few to the set - as I described. I sent for a couple of
historical docs - and sent him copies - and we made sure we both had all the books we knew
about. He still writes to me if I have a question - not probably because I am so wonderful -
but because I believe Joe writes to anyone with a civil question. He did, however, write some
things you would find embarrassing - long ago - and only to save YOUR face do I not bother
to post them.

You are not required to agree with me. You are not required to respect historical data either.
You are required to be civil. If you refuse - I will block all your comments and ignore you -
as the only reasonable policy. And if you really don't like me - just do not read or even block
what I post.



JWE -> RE: IJA Armor units (5/31/2011 2:09:21 AM)

I am quite comfortable with my personal honor. And quite comfortable with my personal honesty. And how are you this lovely memorial day?



bigred -> RE: IJA Armor units (5/31/2011 3:55:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again
Long ago, Joe Wilkerson and I did research on IJA Airborne and Armor units
This research seems to have eluded the AE data set
There is also a new publication to add to the set

What a piece of nonsense. Joe knows you are a joke and anyone involved in AE developmennt thinks the same way. I was a developer. We thought you were a joke. I was a developer. If Joe or anybody else had anything to say from you, we would have known about it. There was nothing. You didn't talk to Joe (unless in your dreams). You didn't talk to anybody. You sure as hell didn't talk to me. We all knew you were worthless and kept as far from you as we could. You are a lying piece of crap that doesn't deserve any recognition from any real developers .


He who destroys another man destroys himself.



herwin -> RE: IJA Armor units (5/31/2011 8:45:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again
Long ago, Joe Wilkerson and I did research on IJA Airborne and Armor units
This research seems to have eluded the AE data set
There is also a new publication to add to the set

What a piece of nonsense. Joe knows you are a joke and anyone involved in AE developmennt thinks the same way. I was a developer. We thought you were a joke. I was a developer. If Joe or anybody else had anything to say from you, we would have known about it. There was nothing. You didn't talk to Joe (unless in your dreams). You didn't talk to anybody. You sure as hell didn't talk to me. We all knew you were worthless and kept as far from you as we could. You are a lying piece of crap that doesn't deserve any recognition from any real developers .



It sounds like you got out of the wrong side of the bed. Can't Joe speak for himself?



treespider -> RE: IJA Armor units (5/31/2011 12:19:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin


quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again
Long ago, Joe Wilkerson and I did research on IJA Airborne and Armor units
This research seems to have eluded the AE data set
There is also a new publication to add to the set

What a piece of nonsense. Joe knows you are a joke and anyone involved in AE developmennt thinks the same way. I was a developer. We thought you were a joke. I was a developer. If Joe or anybody else had anything to say from you, we would have known about it. There was nothing. You didn't talk to Joe (unless in your dreams). You didn't talk to anybody. You sure as hell didn't talk to me. We all knew you were worthless and kept as far from you as we could. You are a lying piece of crap that doesn't deserve any recognition from any real developers .



It sounds like you got out of the wrong side of the bed. Can't Joe speak for himself?



I'm sure Joe can speak for himself. That being said - I will second JWE's comments. Sid Trefethern was never a part of the AE development team. JWE was a Team lead, I was the Land Team lead early on but due to constraints to my schedule handed the privilege over to AndyMac, but continued to participate in meaningful ways.

Sid likes to throw Joe's name around like a business card to try and lend himself credibility. He may have in fact traded e-mails with Joe and other Team members at some point in the past when they were involved with the CHS mod for WitP. HOWEVER , the fact that he did send e-mails in the past does not mean that he contributed in any meaningful way to the AE project. That would be like me sending an e-mail to the President of the US and then claiming I worked with the West Wing of the White House.

Sid has many ideas about WitP / WitP:AE. Some are good and some are downright awful, just remember even blind squirrels can occasionally find a nut. Just do not be led to believe that Sid Trefethern was ever a part of the AE development team.




herwin -> RE: IJA Armor units (5/31/2011 2:31:22 PM)

Thanks for the response. Sid dates to CHS and RHS, well before AE. He disappeared during the AE period, having other fish to fry. I caught sight of him a couple of times in other places, but I'm glad he's back here.



treespider -> RE: IJA Armor units (5/31/2011 3:52:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

Thanks for the response. Sid dates to CHS and RHS, well before AE. He disappeared during the AE period, having other fish to fry. I caught sight of him a couple of times in other places, but I'm glad he's back here.


caveat lector - just be aware that much of what Sid preaches is simple fabrication.



Nikademus -> RE: IJA Armor units (5/31/2011 5:06:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin


quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again
Long ago, Joe Wilkerson and I did research on IJA Airborne and Armor units
This research seems to have eluded the AE data set
There is also a new publication to add to the set

What a piece of nonsense. Joe knows you are a joke and anyone involved in AE developmennt thinks the same way. I was a developer. We thought you were a joke. I was a developer. If Joe or anybody else had anything to say from you, we would have known about it. There was nothing. You didn't talk to Joe (unless in your dreams). You didn't talk to anybody. You sure as hell didn't talk to me. We all knew you were worthless and kept as far from you as we could. You are a lying piece of crap that doesn't deserve any recognition from any real developers .



It sounds like you got out of the wrong side of the bed. Can't Joe speak for himself?



I'm sure Joe can speak for himself. That being said - I will second JWE's comments. Sid Trefethern was never a part of the AE development team. JWE was a Team lead, I was the Land Team lead early on but due to constraints to my schedule handed the privilege over to AndyMac, but continued to participate in meaningful ways.

Sid likes to throw Joe's name around like a business card to try and lend himself credibility. He may have in fact traded e-mails with Joe and other Team members at some point in the past when they were involved with the CHS mod for WitP. HOWEVER , the fact that he did send e-mails in the past does not mean that he contributed in any meaningful way to the AE project. That would be like me sending an e-mail to the President of the US and then claiming I worked with the West Wing of the White House.

Sid has many ideas about WitP / WitP:AE. Some are good and some are downright awful, just remember even blind squirrels can occasionally find a nut. Just do not be led to believe that Sid Trefethern was ever a part of the AE development team.




I'll Third this. I've mentioned Cid's frequent and obnoxious name dropping of his [Joe's] name to Joe on more than one occasion. Joe just laughed and frankly in most cases could not even recall whatever specific Cid was referring to that he either allegedly said or shared with El Name Drops-alot. re: "we talked about this......we researched it.......Joe confirmed this....blah blah." It is also true that Cid sent Joe's email box mounds of sendings. The majority if not all of them going straight to the trash bin unread. Joe had enough on his plate holding his day job as well as leading AE to take time out to read much less respond to Cid's ramblings.

Cid was never a part of AE, as much as he wants to take credit for alot of the things that went into the product.



Andy Mac -> RE: IJA Armor units (5/31/2011 6:16:45 PM)

Cid Kereguelen did most of the Japanese ORBATs as Joe was project manager and K based it on his own sources and data so he would be the one to say whether his sources differ from yours specifically on the support numbers it was done on a different basis to what you have calculated as part of the national TOE harmonisation so its not as straight forward as working out how many support teams are available per unit.

Andy



Rainer -> RE: IJA Armor units (5/31/2011 6:20:07 PM)

It's easy to check who participated in the development of WitP/AE: just check the Credits Screen.
There is no "elCid", "Cid" or Sid.



Kereguelen -> RE: IJA Armor units (5/31/2011 7:39:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Cid Kereguelen did most of the Japanese ORBATs as Joe was project manager and K based it on his own sources and data so he would be the one to say whether his sources differ from yours specifically on the support numbers it was done on a different basis to what you have calculated as part of the national TOE harmonisation so its not as straight forward as working out how many support teams are available per unit.

Andy



Yup, the Japanese ORBAT was mainly my work and Joe 'served' as 'my' reviewer during the AE development process (apart from being our overall project manager and big boss, of course).

And no, as far as I can tell, Sid did not contribute anything to the AE (Sid is no 'source' and we used sources for our work and not random opinions offered by various people). And if I remember correctly, that when we started the AE project, Joe made quite clear that we (the developers) should not make use of any information provided by individuals during the work on the CHS or in the forum but should instead only use source-based information (there were, of course, many posts in the old WITP forum that were most helpful to actually locate some sources). Cannot speak for the other developers, but I certainly did just this when working on the Japanese ORBAT.

And yes, I used the Osprey book mentioned by Sid as one of our sources. As a sidenote: One problem coming with Japanese armored force TOE's is that tank units hardly (if ever) followed any official TOE's and this is somewhat explained in the Osprey book.

And no, the TOE given by Sid above is not the 'official' TOE for Japanes Tank Regiments. I'm at work and don't have the Osprey book at hand, but at first glance Sid's TOE in his first post in this thread looks like some kind of merger of the TOE of a Japanes late war Tank Regiment with the TOE of a Japanese late war Tank Brigade[&:].

Btw., I'm generally willing to answer questions about or discuss the Japanese OOB in the AE (if time/real-life permits) and to explain why, in some cases, TOE's in the AE differ from historical or official TOE data (when it comes to support squads this should be quite clear - they are an abstraction). But I usually ignore posts that contain statements like 'A Tank Regiment TO&E was typically...' because posts like this implicate that the poster already knows everything about a given issue and thus there is no point to discuss it (at least not for me).



herwin -> RE: IJA Armor units (5/31/2011 8:07:03 PM)

Much thanks to everyone for being civil and clarifying.

I teach my students that the reason we talk about 'practicing virtues' is that they take practice--they don't come naturally. Plato's four cardinal virtues are courage, temperance, justice, and prudence. Courage, I think we all understand--it's about standing up when you would much rather sit down. Temperance is about "habitual moderation in the indulgence of a natural appetite or passion"--it's about having one beer in the evening, and no more. Justice is about rightness--for me, it's about "the proper allocation of things--wealth, power, reward, respect--among...people". Finally, prudence is about sound judgement and wisdom--an awareness and acceptance of your limitations. We need to practice those virtues here, with the three theological virtues of faith, hope, and probably most importantly here, charity.



Andy Mac -> RE: IJA Armor units (5/31/2011 8:07:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen


And if I remember correctly, that when we started the AE project, Joe made quite clear that we (the developers) should not make use of any information provided by individuals during the work on the CHS or in the forum but should instead only use source-based information (there were, of course, many posts in the old WITP forum that were most helpful to actually locate some sources). Cannot speak for the other developers, but I certainly did just this when working on the Japanese ORBAT.



That matches my instructions (pretty sure mine came fromm Tree if I am not mistaken) when I joined to do the Indian ORBAT



Terminus -> RE: IJA Armor units (5/31/2011 8:20:51 PM)

Yah... it was always clear that we mustn't rely on stuff from the forum.



Don Bowen -> RE: IJA Armor units (5/31/2011 9:58:46 PM)


Poor Sid. I know he tries hard and does a lot of research. Unfortunately his input is not always useful. Getting a little uneasy with folks dumping on him, though...



Nikademus -> RE: IJA Armor units (5/31/2011 10:21:47 PM)

Personally, if Trefethern wants to do an "RHS II" more power to him. However the continual self plugging of himself and name dropping of JoeW gets old.....fast...especially when one knows it to be bogus. There are a number of smart people on this sub forum who manage to build mods without trying to come off like Christ's second coming.





Terminus -> RE: IJA Armor units (5/31/2011 10:24:08 PM)

Exactly. The whole point is not what he does, but the way he does.



Andrew Brown -> RE: IJA Armor units (5/31/2011 11:30:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


Poor Sid. I know he tries hard and does a lot of research. Unfortunately his input is not always useful. Getting a little uneasy with folks dumping on him, though...


Agreed. I don't like things getting personal either. We should be above that. I try to discuss/argue points on their merits.

Andrew



Andy Mac -> RE: IJA Armor units (5/31/2011 11:35:22 PM)

I agree with Andrew and Don on this one



Terminus -> RE: IJA Armor units (5/31/2011 11:39:31 PM)

Just don't like people who lie as much as he does.



Nikademus -> RE: IJA Armor units (6/1/2011 12:00:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

I agree with Andrew and Don on this one


You are correct of course. However I don't see this as having gotten personal, rather i believe the air has been "officially" cleared, especially by Tree's well worded post (Cleared for the moment that is.....i have no doubt Cid will continue as he has always done) John may have gotten a little hot under the collar but in this case i don't blame him.....as since returning Cid has been going non-stop trying to associate himself with Joe Wilkerson [again] which may lead some people who don't already know of him to think he has some kind of official tie to the game internally, in depth knowledge of processes that John and other Team Leaders oversaw during development and of course a personal active tie in with JoeW....none of which is true. I do know that personally Joe doesn't give a rip if Cid name-drops him but as Tree pointed out.....people who read his posts should know that there's alot of fantasy involved and to take it with a grain of salt.





el cid again -> RE: IJA Armor units (6/1/2011 1:11:47 AM)

Has anybody any intention of being on topic?
For the record I never fabricate anything, and I am unmoved by the idea talking about
someone I know or remember knowing is "name dropping." If I wanted to do that,
I could, having known more than my share of famous people. But so what? It is not
germane to the topic who I knew, or what they thought about me, or vice versa.
I offer information in case anyone is interested - and anyone not should simpy ignore it.
I live in a library - a gross understatement - and collect esoteric materials on these
and a wide variety of other matters. Anyone content to understate the TO&E of armor
units ought to just do nothing - it is already done for them. There is, in these things,
a wide variety of source materials - in multiple languages - in particular in English,
Russian, Japanese and Chinese - and I do not doubt they are not all identical either.
More than one person can be honest, factual and correct at the very same time.
Anyway - I have no time to debate. Those who think I would waste time reporting something
I knew was false - or would make it up - ought to just ignore my posts altogether.
Anyone who really was interested in something could ask where to read more?



Mac67 -> RE: IJA Armor units (6/1/2011 1:54:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again
Long ago, Joe Wilkerson and I did research on IJA Airborne and Armor units
This research seems to have eluded the AE data set
There is also a new publication to add to the set

What a piece of nonsense. Joe knows you are a joke and anyone involved in AE developmennt thinks the same way. I was a developer. We thought you were a joke. I was a developer. If Joe or anybody else had anything to say from you, we would have known about it. There was nothing. You didn't talk to Joe (unless in your dreams). You didn't talk to anybody. You sure as hell didn't talk to me. We all knew you were worthless and kept as far from you as we could. You are a lying piece of crap that doesn't deserve any recognition from any real developers .



Where the hell do you get off talking to people like that? Considering the way you address people on these forums I'm surprised Matrix wants your name connected to their products at all.



Terminus -> RE: IJA Armor units (6/1/2011 11:26:54 AM)

Easy, Mac... "JWE" is just reacting to "el cid again" and his looooooong history of disingenuousness on the forum.



herwin -> RE: IJA Armor units (6/1/2011 3:30:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Easy, Mac... "JWE" is just reacting to "el cid again" and his looooooong history of disingenousness on the forum.


Perhaps the time has come to let bygones be bygones.



Buck Beach -> RE: IJA Armor units (6/1/2011 4:31:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Those who think I would waste time reporting something
I knew was false - or would make it up - ought to just ignore my posts altogether.
Anyone who really was interested in something could ask where to read more?


Seem like sensible solution to me but I doubt it will fly. Too much hate and discontent here and apparently enjoyment.

I predicted it but it didn't take a Nostradamus to see this freight train coming down the track.

Sure is depressing!

Buck






Nikademus -> RE: IJA Armor units (6/1/2011 4:47:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Easy, Mac... "JWE" is just reacting to "el cid again" and his looooooong history of disingenousness on the forum.


Perhaps the time has come to let bygones be bygones.


again......while admitedly John got a bit heated, I don't see it as a hate session. Just a clearing of the air. As predicted, Sid 'denies' that he name-drops or that he fabricates anything.....no suprise there, we've heard it all before. The only difference is that this particular time a number of AE developers chose to step forward and set the record straight for the benefit of posters who might be swayed by Sid's rhetoric. If Sid would simply confine himself to mod discussions and/or questions regarding AE without continually injecting suggestions that he has or had some kind of inside track with the dev team or Joe Wilkerson personally, there would be no issue. But if wishes were fishes. I'll just end it here by repeating Tree's warning.

quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider


quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

Thanks for the response. Sid dates to CHS and RHS, well before AE. He disappeared during the AE period, having other fish to fry. I caught sight of him a couple of times in other places, but I'm glad he's back here.


caveat lector - just be aware that much of what Sid preaches is simple fabrication.





Buck Beach -> RE: IJA Armor units (6/1/2011 5:55:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus


quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Easy, Mac... "JWE" is just reacting to "el cid again" and his looooooong history of disingenousness on the forum.


Perhaps the time has come to let bygones be bygones.


again......while admitedly John got a bit heated, I don't see it as a hate session. Just a clearing of the air. As predicted, Sid 'denies' that he name-drops or that he fabricates anything.....no suprise there, we've heard it all before. The only difference is that this particular time a number of AE developers chose to step forward and set the record straight for the benefit of posters who might be swayed by Sid's rhetoric. If Sid would simply confine himself to mod discussions and/or questions regarding AE without continually injecting suggestions that he has or had some kind of inside track with the dev team or Joe Wilkerson personally, there would be no issue. But if wishes were fishes. I'll just end it here by repeating Tree's warning.

quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider


quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

Thanks for the response. Sid dates to CHS and RHS, well before AE. He disappeared during the AE period, having other fish to fry. I caught sight of him a couple of times in other places, but I'm glad he's back here.


caveat lector - just be aware that much of what Sid preaches is simple fabrication.





"And the beat goes on" and on and on and on and on and on and on.



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