I dont like my union (Full Version)

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Zakhal -> I dont like my union (5/22/2011 3:05:38 AM)

Im from Finland. Sorry its political.




bairdlander -> RE: I dont like my union (5/22/2011 3:41:09 AM)

not sure if that would be considered political.My union doesnt do much for us either.




ilovestrategy -> RE: I dont like my union (5/22/2011 3:49:15 AM)

Ours is good but sometimes I think they demand too much. 




bairdlander -> RE: I dont like my union (5/22/2011 3:55:12 AM)

Well with us they have certain "site specific" rules like no double time at certain jobs,but we have one of the best pensions around.$10 the employer has to give for every hour worked and that realley adds up over time.The real problem is there is no solidarity among workers and even the various trades.If we wanted to we could shutdown the oil refineries if we all walked.But thats illegal here.




Zakhal -> RE: I dont like my union (5/22/2011 5:18:16 AM)

Nice, but you know there is only one union I talk about. 




hgilmer3 -> RE: I dont like my union (5/22/2011 5:29:51 AM)


I always liked the Solidarity Union, but it was more of a movement and a cry for freedom than just a union. Sorry if that is too political.




parusski -> RE: I dont like my union (5/22/2011 6:12:09 AM)

I am happy to be a part time resident of a right to work state. The Volunteer state is great.




Perturabo -> RE: I dont like my union (5/22/2011 1:06:22 PM)

We don't have good unions in Poland. That's why I decided to never work outside family again - when I'll finish studies I'll probably start my own family. Having to do best quality work in bad conditions for 2$ a hour... - never again.
One thing that is the worst that people with higher education can do crap work and still get paid a lot - especially lawyers, while unskilled workers still have to work a lot and do highest quality work and get starvation wages.
Of course randroids justify it by their ideology of great value of mental work and worthlessness of physical work.




vonRocko -> RE: I dont like my union (5/22/2011 2:04:22 PM)

Last week, I had to pay a union $200 dollars an hour too operate an elevator. He literally had too just push the buttons, my workers were not allowed to touch it! I can give you a hundred stories just as ridiculous as this. Screw unions!!!![:@]




apathetic lurker -> RE: I dont like my union (5/22/2011 2:36:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

We don't have good unions in Poland. That's why I decided to never work outside family again - when I'll finish studies I'll probably start my own family. Having to do best quality work in bad conditions for 2$ a hour... - never again.
One thing that is the worst that people with higher education can do crap work and still get paid a lot - especially lawyers, while unskilled workers still have to work a lot and do highest quality work and get starvation wages.
Of course randroids justify it by their ideology of great value of mental work and worthlessness of physical work.


Dont get me started on lawyers......especially Polish lawyers




apathetic lurker -> RE: I dont like my union (5/22/2011 2:41:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

Last week, I had to pay a union $200 dollars an hour too operate an elevator. He literally had too just push the buttons, my workers were not allowed to touch it! I can give you a hundred stories just as ridiculous as this. Screw unions!!!![:@]


Wheres this? I need a new job and 200 bucks an hour to push buttons is a lot more than my union negotiated to drive buses....A freaking lot more....




vonRocko -> RE: I dont like my union (5/22/2011 3:03:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker


Wheres this?

Near you as a matter of fact, Rochester. $200 an hour is the rate I paid the union, I'm sure the worker only got about $50 of that. Construction unions! I've been to sites where we weren't allowed to open doors by ourselves, I needed a union worker to open doors for me!!?? This is the sort of nonsense that shows unions out of control. At least in America. I wonder if unions are as arrogant in other countries? The USA once had a definite need for unions, but I feel those days are gone. I know unions played a huge part of the demise of industry in my state (PA.). When janitors are getting $45 dollars an hour to push brooms, something is wrong. Nothing I can do about it, except gripe.




apathetic lurker -> RE: I dont like my union (5/22/2011 4:56:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vonRocko


quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker


Wheres this?

Near you as a matter of fact, Rochester. $200 an hour is the rate I paid the union, I'm sure the worker only got about $50 of that. Construction unions! I've been to sites where we weren't allowed to open doors by ourselves, I needed a union worker to open doors for me!!?? This is the sort of nonsense that shows unions out of control. At least in America. I wonder if unions are as arrogant in other countries? The USA once had a definite need for unions, but I feel those days are gone. I know unions played a huge part of the demise of industry in my state (PA.). When janitors are getting $45 dollars an hour to push brooms, something is wrong. Nothing I can do about it, except gripe.


I know the transportation unions arent as whacked out as that.... Top pay here is a LOT less than 50 an hour...And we dont have some of the ridiculous crap going on as construction unions.But i'm sure the button masher only is getting 20-25 at the most..Someones hand is skimming off a little from the top...... But I disagree about the need for unions. They are still needed. If we didnt have a union where we worked it would be a lot less safe etc etc..Maybe its the company I work for....I used to be on the other side of the fence when I ran my own company....




Perturabo -> RE: I dont like my union (5/22/2011 5:40:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vonRocko


quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker


Wheres this?

Near you as a matter of fact, Rochester. $200 an hour is the rate I paid the union, I'm sure the worker only got about $50 of that. Construction unions! I've been to sites where we weren't allowed to open doors by ourselves, I needed a union worker to open doors for me!!?? This is the sort of nonsense that shows unions out of control. At least in America. I wonder if unions are as arrogant in other countries? The USA once had a definite need for unions, but I feel those days are gone. I know unions played a huge part of the demise of industry in my state (PA.). When janitors are getting $45 dollars an hour to push brooms, something is wrong. Nothing I can do about it, except gripe.

To be honest, it sounds more like a mafia than a worker union.

quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker


quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

We don't have good unions in Poland. That's why I decided to never work outside family again - when I'll finish studies I'll probably start my own family. Having to do best quality work in bad conditions for 2$ a hour... - never again.
One thing that is the worst that people with higher education can do crap work and still get paid a lot - especially lawyers, while unskilled workers still have to work a lot and do highest quality work and get starvation wages.
Of course randroids justify it by their ideology of great value of mental work and worthlessness of physical work.


Dont get me started on lawyers......especially Polish lawyers

I've heard horror stories about people losing their inheritance, children and stuff like that because of lazy incompetent lawyers. Personally, I have lost my alimony thanks to an incompetent lawyer and earlier I had a few years of delays of execution of overdue alimony thanks to another lawyer. Of course all of these bastards get paid a lot.




Yogi the Great -> RE: I dont like my union (5/22/2011 6:26:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

To be honest, it sounds more like a mafia than a worker union.



And the difference would be?




sabre1 -> RE: I dont like my union (5/22/2011 7:47:51 PM)

^+1




Perturabo -> RE: I dont like my union (5/22/2011 8:43:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yogi the Great


quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

To be honest, it sounds more like a mafia than a worker union.



And the difference would be?

Shift of goals from workers defending themselves from exploitation and unhealthy working conditions to exploiting employers and creating unhealthy conditions for business.




apathetic lurker -> RE: I dont like my union (5/22/2011 8:51:59 PM)

But to be honest, without unions many employers would love nothing more than to crap right on their employees if given half a chance....Im not saying most but a significant portion.




Hertston -> RE: I dont like my union (5/22/2011 11:16:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo
Shift of goals from workers defending themselves from exploitation and unhealthy working conditions to exploiting employers and creating unhealthy conditions for business.


You only seem to hear the "exploiting employers and creating unhealthy conditions for business" bit from employers, though. Odd that.




Perturabo -> RE: I dont like my union (5/23/2011 12:16:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo
Shift of goals from workers defending themselves from exploitation and unhealthy working conditions to exploiting employers and creating unhealthy conditions for business.


You only seem to hear the "exploiting employers and creating unhealthy conditions for business" bit from employers, though. Odd that.

I suspect that employers who have these kind of opinions about unions are of two kinds - randroids who make forming of unions a necessity - to them employees are subhumans who don't deserve to have any profits from their work and whose health is unimportant while they are Ayn Randian overmen creating wealth for themselves with their titanic creativity and intellect and people who run into unions with mafia-like mentality.




bairdlander -> RE: I dont like my union (5/23/2011 4:11:05 AM)

Unionized construction workers like myself are far better workers than non union.We have higher safety standards,are required to go to school to learn our trade whether its electrician,welder,carpentry or whatever.We take various courses on safety or we dont get on site.Non union sites have a much higher ratio of injury and death then unionized sites.




wodin -> RE: I dont like my union (5/23/2011 6:11:50 PM)

$50 an hour...blimey you get damn good wages in the States a similar job here would be around £6 an hour...




ilovestrategy -> RE: I dont like my union (5/23/2011 7:01:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

But to be honest, without unions many employers would love nothing more than to crap right on their employees if given half a chance....Im not saying most but a significant portion.


I can testify to this. I've had to go to my union about abusive supervision before.




Perturabo -> RE: I dont like my union (5/23/2011 7:47:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy


quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

But to be honest, without unions many employers would love nothing more than to crap right on their employees if given half a chance....Im not saying most but a significant portion.


I can testify to this. I've had to go to my union about abusive supervision before.

Not to mention employers that have some stupid philosophy that goes completely against nature who simply can't create healthy working conditions even for themselves.
My mother has caught bronchitis a few times because she can't comprehend that when she has a serious cold she should go to doctor, not continue to work and ignore it. Similarly she tends to work 7 days a week, 10 hours a day and then be surprised that she's working too slow and she's making mistakes during work.
And I often encounter this kind of attitude from people. It's like they are forgetting the basic concepts of hygiene because they are incompatible with the ideology of being a hard-working ultra-reliable overmen that gets promoted by certain people.




parusski -> RE: I dont like my union (5/23/2011 10:44:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander

Unionized construction workers like myself are far better workers than non union.We have higher safety standards,are required to go to school to learn our trade whether its electrician,welder,carpentry or whatever.We take various courses on safety or we dont get on site.Non union sites have a much higher ratio of injury and death then unionized sites.


Oh that is way to much of an oversimplified generalization. Tennessee is a right to work state, and I have worked for three corporations since I graduated from college in 1989. All three companies have have great records for fairness and safety. UAW tried several times to unionize Nissan workers at the Smyrna, TN. plant. The last attempt failed miserably. Thank God those employee's new they had more to lose(DUES) than to gain.




Jeffrey H. -> RE: I dont like my union (5/24/2011 3:45:46 AM)

I didn't like mine either, Retail Clerks local 369 IIRC. Lots of dues, no representation, rediculous work rules. Closed shop. All the wrong things with a labor union. Dramatically overpaid. Worked like a dog.




bairdlander -> RE: I dont like my union (5/24/2011 3:55:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski


quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander

Unionized construction workers like myself are far better workers than non union.We have higher safety standards,are required to go to school to learn our trade whether its electrician,welder,carpentry or whatever.We take various courses on safety or we dont get on site.Non union sites have a much higher ratio of injury and death then unionized sites.


Oh that is way to much of an oversimplified generalization. Tennessee is a right to work state, and I have worked for three corporations since I graduated from college in 1989. All three companies have have great records for fairness and safety. UAW tried several times to unionize Nissan workers at the Smyrna, TN. plant. The last attempt failed miserably. Thank God those employee's new they had more to lose(DUES) than to gain.
I was talking about construction.A Japanese auto maker like Nissan is totally different.Unionized plants/factories are a total different entitiy than construction.All Im saying is non union is like "here's a tool start working" or whatever.Union we have to earn it and if you goof off or call in sick all the time,you get laid off.Contracts are rewarded based on safety.Non union has a far higher rate of workplace accidents and shoddy workmanship than unionized.In fact most non union lose their contracts to unionized companies because of this.At least here anyway I dont know about USA.




Canoerebel -> RE: I dont like my union (5/24/2011 1:07:47 PM)

Like many things in life, unions are great in theory but seldom in practice.  A few examples:

1.  The Marine force destined to invade Guadalcanal in August 1942 staged through Wellington, New Zealand.  The force was in a hurry to get their gear unloaded and then combat loaded.  Only the union workers were in no particular hurry.  They had their rules and their hours and they weren't going to budge from those even to help men going into combat and protecting the place the union workers lived.  The Marines finally took over the job and, as soldiers will do, got it done.

2.  I interviewed a U.S. Navy officer who was in charge of a navy gun crew on a merchant marine ship on the Murmansk convoys.  His gun crew went on action stations at dawn and dusk every day because that was when German subs and aircraft attacked.  His men had a narrow window in the afternoon to grab chow.  One day he found out his men hadn't eaten and he asked why.  One of the sailors said that the galley was only open from 1100 to 1200 and that they didn't get off duty until after noon.  So the officer went to the galley and asked the cook to feed his men.  The cook, a union man, refused.  He said union rules specified that the galley closed at noon and that was that.  Incensed, the officer told the cook he was going down to his quarters, getting his side arm, and would return in a few minutes.  When he returned, the cook was feeding the gunnery crew.  But he had to be forced to feed the men who were protecting him and his ship....and the officer said he never went on deck alone again because he knew the union men would toss him overboard if they got the chance.

I know of many other instances in which union workers refused to do simple things, refused to let people do things for themselves, and filed grievances if non-union workers did simple, commensense things to fix a problem.  Many union workers are good men and women who chaffe under such a system, but they are forced by threat of violence or punishment to toe the line.




Perturabo -> RE: I dont like my union (5/24/2011 2:34:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Like many things in life, unions are great in theory but seldom in practice.

So, what other solution do you propose?




Slick Wilhelm -> RE: I dont like my union (5/24/2011 8:02:08 PM)

Unions are a good thing, per se. Read some history on pre-union working conditions in almost any country, and compare that with working conditions in the 20th century during the Union heyday.

That being said, Unions are prone to corruption and extremism just like any other business entity. You've got your good businesses and your bad businesses. You've got your good unions and your bad unions. I think most reasonable people would admit that Unions and their rules went overboard and created a backlash of anti-union sentiment in the latter part of the 20th century.

Still, unions and/or strict federal laws are necessary to prevent businesses from exploiting their workforce.

If you believe that most businesses would not exploit their workforce if they were allowed to by law, then I have some fine ocean front property in Nebraska to sell you.




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