When will Panzer IIIn get used? (Full Version)

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Aditia -> When will Panzer IIIn get used? (5/5/2011 7:43:35 PM)

So, I am in turn 17 of a 43-45 PBEM and one thing that is really starting to annoy me is the fact that I have 250 PzKw IIIn's in the pool, while my frontline units are desperately short of AFV's. Will these tanks ever get used or is this a bug? I am playing v1.03



[image]local://upfiles/37963/333FD88C4E38466884B621A6C38295E4.gif[/image]




traemyn -> RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? (5/5/2011 8:47:25 PM)

See http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2767769&mpage=1&key=

Note that I am not saying its NOT a bug but its possible to have those sitting in the pool according to how the game models production.




Helpless -> RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? (5/5/2011 8:54:31 PM)

It is not about production, but the way TOE(OB) is done. Pz-IIIn is CS type tank and can't be substituted for other types. Probably not many units has this type in OOB at the moment.




Aditia -> RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? (5/5/2011 9:01:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

It is not about production, but the way TOE(OB) is done. Pz-IIIn is CS type tank and can't be substituted for other types. Probably not many units has this type in OOB at the moment.



I understand what you are saying, but I don't understand what you are trying to say =P Is this as intended or not? And yes, I know it is a CS tank, which is why I was hoping it would filter to infantry divisions since I am very low on StuG's :) Also, the gun of the IIIn does have anti-armor capabilities by firing HEAT ammo




Helpless -> RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? (5/5/2011 9:01:43 PM)

quote:

Is this as intended or not?


yes




heliodorus04 -> RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? (5/5/2011 9:03:38 PM)

What's a "CS type" tank?

What rationale drives the game mechanic that sees an armored division's worth of state-of-the-art tanks lying at their factory locale back in Germany?  (This mechanic is certainly of no value to the German army. What's the historical basis of such a mechanic is what I'm getting at.)

And while production system as a whole is something I basically consider PFM (pure f****ng magic), this is primarily from lack of effort on my part.  How do you have 250 of a tank that you have no capacity to build?  Is that an off-map factory production element?




Helpless -> RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? (5/5/2011 9:10:24 PM)

quote:

What's a "CS type" tank?


Counter Strike




Aditia -> RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? (5/5/2011 9:28:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

quote:

What's a "CS type" tank?


Counter Strike


LOL




Aditia -> RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? (5/5/2011 9:31:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

What's a "CS type" tank?

What rationale drives the game mechanic that sees an armored division's worth of state-of-the-art tanks lying at their factory locale back in Germany?  (This mechanic is certainly of no value to the German army. What's the historical basis of such a mechanic is what I'm getting at.)

And while production system as a whole is something I basically consider PFM (pure f****ng magic), this is primarily from lack of effort on my part.  How do you have 250 of a tank that you have no capacity to build?  Is that an off-map factory production element?



1. Close Support

2. According to the game the things did not get used I guess. Pretty sure that is wrong....

3. It was being produced uptil summer 1943. Production ceased on turn 4 or so. Want to buy one? They are all in brand new condition!


EDIT: if this is working as intended, well, all I can do is make a monkey face and continue to soldier on in my game. I have to say it feels pretty dumb to see 90% of my infantry divisions without AFV (StuG losses are horrific) and seeing 250 infantry tanks being used to parade around the Champs Elysee




Helpless -> RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? (5/5/2011 9:41:44 PM)

I meant it works as intended form the code perspective. The fact the Germans don't have appropriate OB to utilize CS Tanks in beyond 1943 is outside of my competence. Hopefully Jim will answer this.

Stugs are assault guns and can't be substituted by CS tanks. We tried to create all kind of exceptions, but then it leads to much worse anomalies.




heliodorus04 -> RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? (5/5/2011 9:47:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

I meant it works as intended form the code perspective. The fact the Germans don't have appropriate OB to utilize CS Tanks in beyond 1943 is outside of my competence. Hopefully Jim will answer this.

Stugs are assault guns and can't be substituted by CS tanks. We tried to create all kind of exceptions, but then it leads to much worse anomalies.


Would be awesome to find a way to shove them into use, though. Germans need all the workable tanks they can find. Hell, even lend-lease to Romania might be better than leaving them idle.




Brad Hunter -> RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? (5/5/2011 10:33:32 PM)

That sounds like a faux pas - The Pz.IIIn was used as a main combat tank.




Mynok -> RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? (5/5/2011 10:52:26 PM)

The IIIn? With the short 75? Surely by main combat tank you don't mean an anti-armor role, because it was grossly unsuited for that. Wasn't the whole point of the IIIn to use up PzIII chassis and free up PzIV chassis for the G and H models?

Infantry support tanks were still used, but stug's were cheaper to build. And probably more useful.




Mynok -> RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? (5/5/2011 10:56:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aditia
EDIT: if this is working as intended, well, all I can do is make a monkey face and continue to soldier on in my game. I have to say it feels pretty dumb to see 90% of my infantry divisions without AFV (StuG losses are horrific) and seeing 250 infantry tanks being used to parade around the Champs Elysee


If Stug losses are bad, IIIn losses would be much worse.




Aditia -> RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? (5/5/2011 10:58:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aditia
EDIT: if this is working as intended, well, all I can do is make a monkey face and continue to soldier on in my game. I have to say it feels pretty dumb to see 90% of my infantry divisions without AFV (StuG losses are horrific) and seeing 250 infantry tanks being used to parade around the Champs Elysee


If Stug losses are bad, IIIn losses would be much worse.


better burning in russia than using up precious storage space




TAIL_GUNNER -> RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? (5/6/2011 2:38:20 AM)

The Germans never had a CS type tank designation in their unit orgs.

Battle tanks were either light, medium, or heavy....Panzer IV and IIIn were always designated mediums.

Type 'CS' should be done away with...unless there's something in the code for this identifier?




AKCLIMBER -> RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? (5/6/2011 2:45:00 AM)

The handling of production and distribution of equipment can certainly be frustrating.  I'm on turn 166 (August, 1944) of a GC vs Soviets and I've got 296 Tigers, 95 King Tigers, 94 Jagdpanthers and 70 Hetzers in my pool.  I could certainly use them up on the line.  At least some units are using the Tigers, Jagdpanthers and Hetzers but none of my pixel panzer truppen seem interested in taking possession of those Tiger IIs, even tho my Gorky and Rostov lines are beginning to crumble.




TAIL_GUNNER -> RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? (5/6/2011 4:26:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AKCLIMBER

The handling of production and distribution of equipment can certainly be frustrating.  I'm on turn 166 (August, 1944) of a GC vs Soviets and I've got 296 Tigers, 95 King Tigers, 94 Jagdpanthers and 70 Hetzers in my pool.  I could certainly use them up on the line.  At least some units are using the Tigers, Jagdpanthers and Hetzers but none of my pixel panzer truppen seem interested in taking possession of those Tiger IIs, even tho my Gorky and Rostov lines are beginning to crumble.


Ran some numbers on the Tiger production numbers in the game..

Production runs from 7/42 - 12/44 = 125 weeks (why does the editor say 150 weeks??)
Factory in Kassel produces 9 per week, so 9 * 125 = 1125
As "free" reinforcements you get another 230 Tigers.
Grand total = 1355

Historical production was 1347 machines.
This is why the numbers are so high...it seems the game is producing for ALL theaters, even though the focus should only be the East Front.

I wonder if this is intentional?




Mynok -> RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? (5/6/2011 6:29:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TAIL_GUNNER

The Germans never had a CS type tank designation in their unit orgs.

Battle tanks were either light, medium, or heavy....Panzer IV and IIIn were always designated mediums.

Type 'CS' should be done away with...unless there's something in the code for this identifier?



I don't know enough to say whether the designation is true or not, but the design is clear: they were infantry support tanks and not anti-armor ones. The short 75 was useful in many ways, but not for killing armor.




AKCLIMBER -> RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? (5/6/2011 6:31:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TAIL_GUNNER


quote:

ORIGINAL: AKCLIMBER

The handling of production and distribution of equipment can certainly be frustrating.  I'm on turn 166 (August, 1944) of a GC vs Soviets and I've got 296 Tigers, 95 King Tigers, 94 Jagdpanthers and 70 Hetzers in my pool.  I could certainly use them up on the line.  At least some units are using the Tigers, Jagdpanthers and Hetzers but none of my pixel panzer truppen seem interested in taking possession of those Tiger IIs, even tho my Gorky and Rostov lines are beginning to crumble.


Ran some numbers on the Tiger production numbers in the game..

Production runs from 7/42 - 12/44 = 125 weeks (why does the editor say 150 weeks??)
Factory in Kassel produces 9 per week, so 9 * 125 = 1125
As "free" reinforcements you get another 230 Tigers.
Grand total = 1355

Historical production was 1347 machines.
This is why the numbers are so high...it seems the game is producing for ALL theaters, even though the focus should only be the East Front.

I wonder if this is intentional?


Nice work. [&o] That certainly seems to make sense.




821Bobo -> RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? (5/6/2011 7:18:53 AM)

PzIIIN were used as support for heavy armor battalions, check your Tiger battalions, PzIIIN should be there.




randallw -> RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? (5/6/2011 8:04:30 AM)

No CS tank designation by the Germans?  So the Pz IVe was classified as a medium? It wouldn't be good for the crews
for the tank to be used that way.




molchomor -> RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? (5/6/2011 8:43:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AKCLIMBER


quote:

ORIGINAL: TAIL_GUNNER


quote:

ORIGINAL: AKCLIMBER

The handling of production and distribution of equipment can certainly be frustrating.  I'm on turn 166 (August, 1944) of a GC vs Soviets and I've got 296 Tigers, 95 King Tigers, 94 Jagdpanthers and 70 Hetzers in my pool.  I could certainly use them up on the line.  At least some units are using the Tigers, Jagdpanthers and Hetzers but none of my pixel panzer truppen seem interested in taking possession of those Tiger IIs, even tho my Gorky and Rostov lines are beginning to crumble.


Ran some numbers on the Tiger production numbers in the game..

Production runs from 7/42 - 12/44 = 125 weeks (why does the editor say 150 weeks??)
Factory in Kassel produces 9 per week, so 9 * 125 = 1125
As "free" reinforcements you get another 230 Tigers.
Grand total = 1355

Historical production was 1347 machines.
This is why the numbers are so high...it seems the game is producing for ALL theaters, even though the focus should only be the East Front.

I wonder if this is intentional?


Nice work. [&o] That certainly seems to make sense.




In my 42 GC I get 8 tigers/week, from the start of production it has been this way. 125 weeks of that would mean I get 1000 tanks less than the figure quoted above during the same period (I am in feb '44 now and still 8 tigers are produced each turn). So I would not be so sure to draw any conclusions on the "production for all theatres" thing. of course I have the same problem with most units not wanting/daring to use the tiger and king tigers so the majority are sitting in the pool (this has been discussed to death before, we will never get a switch tank equipment option (as exists for aircrafts) so game "features" as e.g. pz divisions having zero or very few T-70:s, T-34s etc. in their listed equipment instead of using the piles of tigers being available will stay).

Edit: Lol ? 125 x 1 = 125 tanks less not 1000 tanks less :)




molchomor -> RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? (5/6/2011 8:44:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TAIL_GUNNER

The Germans never had a CS type tank designation in their unit orgs.

Battle tanks were either light, medium, or heavy....Panzer IV and IIIn were always designated mediums.

Type 'CS' should be done away with...unless there's something in the code for this identifier?




+1




Murat30 -> RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? (5/6/2011 10:00:04 AM)

maybe a workaround may be to change directly those factories with those tanks in production to stug production, or any type you can see as empty in the ToE of frontline units, of course, that workaround may take one or two games to be clear what to do, may be great also if frontline units dont take tiger II type, to change those factories to another type.

another workaround (harder) may be to change panzer divisions ToE from generic data tab, to have the type/s of tanks that are sitting in the pool, aside panzer divisions, same can be said for pzgrenadier divisions from '43 onwards.

best regards,

Murat30.




johntoml56 -> RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? (5/6/2011 10:33:00 AM)

I suppose this is one of the problems you have with the game being an historical simulator...I can understand historical combat results, and arrivals and withdrawals, but historical production....? if you are doing better than history then the excess production sits in the pool, has no on the ground benefit...you cannot create ne w units or upgrade....then again the AXIS wasnt all that efficient ( I think Speer mentioned a printers still producing maps of Stalingrad in 1945) so perhaps this excess equipment equates to this inefficiency......




squatter -> RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? (5/6/2011 11:18:22 AM)

On the subject of excess AFVs, my PBEM is in December 42, and I've built up a pool of around 1300 halftracks in the German pool. The only units that want to use these so far are panzer divisions, who only have around 12 in their TOE each. No one else uses halftracks. Panzergrenadier squads have h-ts built in, so they wont be using them either.

Am I ever going to see these used up, or are they just going to keep on stacking up back in Berlin?





jaw -> RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? (5/6/2011 1:09:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aditia

quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

It is not about production, but the way TOE(OB) is done. Pz-IIIn is CS type tank and can't be substituted for other types. Probably not many units has this type in OOB at the moment.



I understand what you are saying, but I don't understand what you are trying to say =P Is this as intended or not? And yes, I know it is a CS tank, which is why I was hoping it would filter to infantry divisions since I am very low on StuG's :) Also, the gun of the IIIn does have anti-armor capabilities by firing HEAT ammo


The Panzer IIIn last appears in the TOE of the 42 Heavy Panzer Battalion which upgrades to the 43 Heavy Panzer Battalion in July, 1943. The Panzer IIIn itself goes out of production in August, 1943.

The way the game system works AFVs are defined by type such a light tank, medium tank, etc. Unless specifically allowed by code, these types are not interchangeable. This prohibition was a deliberate design decision to allow TOEs to maintain an historical distribution of tank types/quantities to the greatest extend possible. The downside of this prohibition is that occasionally in cases like the Panzer IIIn the type can be discontinued in the TOEs before it actually ends production. In the "real world" the Germans would have simply used any available Panzer IIIns as substitute battle tanks and thought nothing of it; such flexibility can't easily be represented in a game.




heliodorus04 -> RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? (5/6/2011 1:31:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jaw

The Panzer IIIn last appears in the TOE of the 42 Heavy Panzer Battalion which upgrades to the 43 Heavy Panzer Battalion in July, 1943. The Panzer IIIn itself goes out of production in August, 1943.

The way the game system works AFVs are defined by type such a light tank, medium tank, etc. Unless specifically allowed by code, these types are not interchangeable. This prohibition was a deliberate design decision to allow TOEs to maintain an historical distribution of tank types/quantities to the greatest extend possible. The downside of this prohibition is that occasionally in cases like the Panzer IIIn the type can be discontinued in the TOEs before it actually ends production. In the "real world" the Germans would have simply used any available Panzer IIIns as substitute battle tanks and thought nothing of it; such flexibility can't easily be represented in a game.

All well and good. I understand programming constraints and design constraints. But this kind of constraint is (to me, anyway) a serious handicap for the German, which is already under considerable pressure to manage its flow of replacements to units. That part bothers me.

Ought to be some mechanism by which Pooled elements can either be distributed to units even when the TOE is violated or some mechanism by which unusable Pooled elements can be converted into something useable, especially for Germany.




ncdawg -> RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? (5/6/2011 2:24:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: molchomor

quote:

ORIGINAL: AKCLIMBER


quote:

ORIGINAL: TAIL_GUNNER


quote:

ORIGINAL: AKCLIMBER

The handling of production and distribution of equipment can certainly be frustrating.  I'm on turn 166 (August, 1944) of a GC vs Soviets and I've got 296 Tigers, 95 King Tigers, 94 Jagdpanthers and 70 Hetzers in my pool.  I could certainly use them up on the line.  At least some units are using the Tigers, Jagdpanthers and Hetzers but none of my pixel panzer truppen seem interested in taking possession of those Tiger IIs, even tho my Gorky and Rostov lines are beginning to crumble.


Ran some numbers on the Tiger production numbers in the game..

Production runs from 7/42 - 12/44 = 125 weeks (why does the editor say 150 weeks??)
Factory in Kassel produces 9 per week, so 9 * 125 = 1125
As "free" reinforcements you get another 230 Tigers.
Grand total = 1355

Historical production was 1347 machines.
This is why the numbers are so high...it seems the game is producing for ALL theaters, even though the focus should only be the East Front.

I wonder if this is intentional?


Nice work. [&o] That certainly seems to make sense.




In my 42 GC I get 8 tigers/week, from the start of production it has been this way. 125 weeks of that would mean I get 1000 tanks less than the figure quoted above during the same period (I am in feb '44 now and still 8 tigers are produced each turn). So I would not be so sure to draw any conclusions on the "production for all theatres" thing. of course I have the same problem with most units not wanting/daring to use the tiger and king tigers so the majority are sitting in the pool (this has been discussed to death before, we will never get a switch tank equipment option (as exists for aircrafts) so game "features" as e.g. pz divisions having zero or very few T-70:s, T-34s etc. in their listed equipment instead of using the piles of tigers being available will stay).

Edit: Lol ? 125 x 1 = 125 tanks less not 1000 tanks less :)



Check out Section 21.4 of the game manual. There is a year-dependent multiplier that determines the fraction of production that is available for the eastern front.




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