WINTER OF 41 (Full Version)

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loveman1 -> WINTER OF 41 (3/2/2011 6:24:39 PM)

Having just got the crap kicked out of me juring winter 41 as Germany I don't believe that WITE is playable beyond the winter as the winter penalties are way to high for Germany. I was expecting Mr Grisby to make a great game but now feel that although graphically great, it leave somewhat to be desired[:(]



Adnan Meshuggi -> RE: WINTER OF 41 (3/2/2011 6:36:36 PM)

hi, a lot people try to solve the problem.
just relax - i will buy it if they make a gc with solving this problems or if they solve it in the game. If not - at last the scenarios sound great and all players think they are good. Sure, the most important scenario has very serious problems, but i bet the matrix-people will solve it. Give em 3-9 months, i bet after that you will 100% satisfied with the game



Xian -> RE: WINTER OF 41 (3/2/2011 6:44:25 PM)

Hey, I am playing the Russian in the GC in 41 and the Germans are kicking the crap out of me beyond belief on normal.

I just think the game kicks the crap out of you no matter which side you are on. I take it as a learning experience. Maybe replaying it and digging in earlier might help... trust me, I am replaying a lot as well so that I can learn better.

Also please note that the Germans also got the crap kicked out of them historically during the Winter and the Russians during 41 so if you get hit harder than what happend historically and it's not your 10th and 20th time playing, this is what you would want from a challenging programmed opponent.



Adnan Meshuggi -> RE: WINTER OF 41 (3/2/2011 6:58:26 PM)

Maybe true for ai, but pbem is another thing. here - so the better player say - every average (bad) russian player kickk every elite german player.... it doesen´t matter what the axis side try out.

This is a gamestopper.... even if i play the russian side in such a game.



Xian -> RE: WINTER OF 41 (3/2/2011 7:02:24 PM)

Well, how badly do you get mauled? Historically they had to take the front hundreds of kilometers back in some spots.



GFelz -> RE: WINTER OF 41 (3/2/2011 7:10:46 PM)

I am now of the opinion that the blizzard effects with Beta 6 is fine versus the AI. Until I play several pbem games through the blizzard season I will reserve judgement. In the meantime, I think alot of folks need to realize that "summer" tactics will not work during the '41/42 winter season. After that it works fine.



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: WINTER OF 41 (3/2/2011 7:16:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GFelz

I am now of the opinion that the blizzard effects with Beta 6 is fine versus the AI. Until I play several pbem games through the blizzard season I will reserve judgement.


Testing vs the AI is no testing at all. To be precise - it's nice if you were testing the AI itself, but if you were testing the weather effects on armies, it's worthless. Some people tend to disregard the results of HvH games if they feel one of the players wasn't as competent as the other. So, even the smallest nuances between two human players may skew the results a LOT.

What, then, to think of the games against the AI?? Please....

quote:

In the meantime, I think alot of folks need to realize that "summer" tactics will not work during the '41/42 winter season.


Geee, thanks for letting us know, we would never guess [8|]

(I apologize in advance to all who think I am being a smartass. Really most people on these forums are nice, I am in the minority LOL)



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: WINTER OF 41 (3/2/2011 7:21:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Xian

Hey, I am playing the Russian in the GC in 41 and the Germans are kicking the crap out of me beyond belief on normal.



Wait till winter. I am of the opinion that the modelling of the 41-42 season (first 9 months of the campaign) is seriously screwed by what I call "two waves of supermen".

First you have overpowered Germans, too strong for too long - that is what you're obviously experiencing now. Germans, although overpowered, require significant skill to be used, though, so most HvH games survive this wave and are playable even after that (for some time).

After that you get even more overpowered Soviets during first winter. NO HvH game that I know of managed to survive the attack of Superhuman Soviets, and enter spring 42 in anything resembling a playable state (let alone "realistic" or "historic" which are ambiguous terms anyway, so lets stick to "playable").

Those are current problems with GC as I see them, but the game is very young patch-wise, and everything will be solved in due course....



GFelz -> RE: WINTER OF 41 (3/2/2011 8:08:53 PM)

Oleg, you are a smart ass and a jerk. Revelling in it does not excuse it. I encourage you to stop posting and scaring away those that might have legitimate questions but afraid to ask.

Next, not everyone plays PBEM therefore playing the AI is not worthless. Maybe for you but again appearently you are the only one that counts.

Finally, tactics might be worth discussing since most AARs are not currently changing current "summer" thinking.



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: WINTER OF 41 (3/2/2011 8:19:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GFelz

Oleg, you are a smart ass and a jerk. Revelling in it does not excuse it. I encourage you to stop posting and scaring away those that might have legitimate questions but afraid to ask.

Next, not everyone plays PBEM therefore playing the AI is not worthless. Finally, tactics might be worth discussing since most AARs are not currently changing current "summer" thinking.


I am not saying your game or tactics is worthless but as a test of balance or weather effects in the game I am sorry, playing/testing vs AI is worthless! AI will simply never (ab)use the rules as much as average human player.

I am really REALLY sorry that there are so many sensitive souls among warmagers (of all people) who feel injured when someone says it like it is.

BTW, with so many discussions going on how winter is in fact radically different than summer, your suggestion that "folks need to realize that summer tactics will not work during the '41/42 winter season" was just too funny to pass. [;)]



James Ward -> RE: WINTER OF 41 (3/2/2011 8:29:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

First you have overpowered Germans, too strong for too long - that is what you're obviously experiencing now. Germans, although overpowered, require significant skill to be used, though, so most HvH games survive this wave and are playable even after that (for some time).


You mean the Germans are stronger in this game than in real life, where they advanced hundreds of miles into Russia to the gates of Moscow, Lenningrad and Rostov, killing hundreds of thousands of Russians and capturing millions more in about 5 months?
Dang thay must be pretty damn strong!



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: WINTER OF 41 (3/2/2011 8:33:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: James Ward
You mean the Germans are stronger in this game than in real life, where they advanced hundreds of miles into Russia to the gates of Moscow, Lenningrad and Rostov, killing hundreds of thousands of Russians and capturing millions more in about 5 months?
Dang thay must be pretty damn strong!


Yes they are, there's some solid discussion about that going on on the last pages of the "Winter idea" thread. In hands of capable player in WITE they will advance even further with relative ease. They keep their combat strength and TOE far longer in game than they did in real life. However, that in part might be to Russian player tactics of avoiding combat (jury is still out on that one IMO).

Still, this thread is about the winter effects, which currently serve to make Soviets into even more formidable supermen than Germans would ever hope to be.



James Ward -> RE: WINTER OF 41 (3/2/2011 8:39:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
Still, this thread is about the winter effects, which currently serve to make Soviets into even more formidable supermen than Germans would ever hope to be.


Every superman needs a super opponent! [:)]



pat.casey -> RE: WINTER OF 41 (3/2/2011 9:15:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GFelz

Oleg, you are a smart ass and a jerk. <snip>


What did I miss here? I saw nothing inappropriate in Oleg's comments?



cookie monster -> RE: WINTER OF 41 (3/2/2011 9:19:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pat.casey


quote:

ORIGINAL: GFelz

Oleg, you are a smart ass and a jerk. <snip>


What did I miss here? I saw nothing inappropriate in Oleg's comments?


Post 7.



pat.casey -> RE: WINTER OF 41 (3/2/2011 9:36:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cookie monster


quote:

ORIGINAL: pat.casey


quote:

ORIGINAL: GFelz

Oleg, you are a smart ass and a jerk. <snip>


What did I miss here? I saw nothing inappropriate in Oleg's comments?


Post 7.


Perhaps its a language problem then (or a cultural one); I don't see anything offensive in Oleg's post 7, but maybe that's my americanness not noticing something that's offensive to others.



cookie monster -> RE: WINTER OF 41 (3/2/2011 9:42:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pat.casey


quote:

ORIGINAL: cookie monster


quote:

ORIGINAL: pat.casey


quote:

ORIGINAL: GFelz

Oleg, you are a smart ass and a jerk. <snip>


What did I miss here? I saw nothing inappropriate in Oleg's comments?


Post 7.


Perhaps its a language problem then (or a cultural one); I don't see anything offensive in Oleg's post 7, but maybe that's my americanness not noticing something that's offensive to others.


In international english it is offensive.



Mynok -> RE: WINTER OF 41 (3/2/2011 10:28:32 PM)


It's quite a curious behavior that people feel compelled to start another thread about a subject that has been incessantly beaten about for a solid week.



cookie monster -> RE: WINTER OF 41 (3/2/2011 10:36:28 PM)

If the forum allowed Polls. We should have a poll.

Is the First Winter broke? etc

I have no idea only played ze Germans once.



pompack -> RE: WINTER OF 41 (3/2/2011 10:46:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: loveman1

Having just got the crap kicked out of me juring winter 41 as Germany I don't believe that WITE is playable beyond the winter as the winter penalties are way to high for Germany. I was expecting Mr Grisby to make a great game but now feel that although graphically great, it leave somewhat to be desired[:(]


Now against the AI it is quite easy for the Germans to consistently win on Challenging. The thing that makes the First Winter difficult is the fact that the average, experienced player is just much better than the AI. I would suggest that you continue playing until you you can do this and hopefully by that time any balance issues with human strategies will be resolved.

Now to expand on that, I have found (both by my own play and reading all the AARs) that it is fairly easy to tell if you are winning or not by the start of the Blizzard. It does not matter much WHERE the front line is at that point, but the total Russian casualty count is the significant thing.

IF the Russians have suffered fewer than 2,000,000 total casualties you are going to lose.
IF the casualties are at least 3,000,000 then you might not lose if you are very good
IF the casualties are at least 4,000,000 then you might win depending on how well you fight in the 42 campaign season
IF the casualties are more then 5,000,000 then you probably will win but there is still a lot of hard fighting ahead.

The way the casualties determine this is it measures just how much the Russians have left to throw at you. If there are enough Russians left in January 42, then the Germans are going to get badly hurt. If there are not enough then the Germans will still have an army left in the Spring even if they have to fall back 20-40 hexes to perserve their force.

Now casualties in the three to five million range are achievable against the AI or an aggressive opponent. Right now it is hard to achieve this against a Russian who falls back carefully (but not precipitately). But with practice the balance issue is that the Germans always beat the Russian AI on normal or challenging.

Now my current belief is that I don't have a chance of surviving into 1944 playing the Germans against an experienced human. But OTOH I lost pretty badly everytime I played the AI on NORMAL the first half-dozen times too so maybe if I just learn a lot more I could beat a human, at least sometimes.

Just my two cents on the balance issue.




Senno -> RE: WINTER OF 41 (3/2/2011 10:49:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cookie monster

If the forum allowed Polls. We should have a poll.

Is the First Winter broke? etc

I have no idea only played ze Germans once.


I think we should first form an "Exploration Committee" to see if the idea of "polls" has any merit and should be undertaken. Once the committee report is in with their first draft, we can consider electing representatives to a permanent guidance body. After they decide who gets to sit at the head of the table, and other important issues, the real work can begin.

We really should take this idea, turn it into "Game Development by Committee" and run with it.

I kid, but not really.[;)]

PS: This isn't aimed at you, Cookie. Just a general feeling of malaise as we wait for the Developers/Testers to come to terms with what they want to do with the winter, if anything.

Yay, yet another thread about winter....



Mynok -> RE: WINTER OF 41 (3/2/2011 11:03:51 PM)


I suppose we could disregard it....... [:'(]



Senno -> RE: WINTER OF 41 (3/2/2011 11:06:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


I suppose we could disregard it....... [:'(]


You are probably right. I'm sure the OP would prefer that I ignore it rather than drive it well off course.[:D]



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: WINTER OF 41 (3/2/2011 11:12:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok
It's quite a curious behavior that people feel compelled to start another thread about a subject that has been incessantly beaten about for a solid week.


People don't read other threads before posting.... that's why some opinionated people (khm!) feel the need to repeat their opinion in every thread. I mean, I would not want anyone to miss on my opinion about two waves of supermen! [;)]



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: WINTER OF 41 (3/2/2011 11:14:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cookie monster
In international english it is offensive.


Is there any other wording to tell that the testing blizzard vs AI is worthless, without being "offensive"? I'd really like to know....

Apparently, the only way not to be offensive is to act as if playing blizz vs AI has equal merit as playing vs human, even if we all know it doesn't.



alfonso -> RE: WINTER OF 41 (3/2/2011 11:17:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok
It's quite a curious behavior that people feel compelled to start another thread about a subject that has been incessantly beaten about for a solid week.


People don't read other threads before posting.... that's why some opinionated people (khm!) feel the need to repeat their opinion in every thread. I mean, I would not want anyone to miss on my opinion about two waves of supermen! [;)]


As a matter of fact, if you google "two waves of supermen" you are the only hit!![:)]



cookie monster -> RE: WINTER OF 41 (3/2/2011 11:21:18 PM)

sad but true[8D]



BigAnorak -> RE: WINTER OF 41 (3/2/2011 11:32:00 PM)

Another day, another blizzard thread, oh good.

Pompack does make a very valid point that applies equally to AI and PBEM games, in that the relative condition of the 2 armies going into the blizzard has a major influence on the condition of the 2 armies coming out of the Blizzard, although I disagree with him about the location of the front line not mattering.

I would agree that his numbers are pretty good benchmarks, and I always tried to get across the 4 million threshold in all my tests.

The contentious point remains that an imbalance going in magnifies the imbalance coming out.

So of course our friend Oleg, with his vast experience of one whole turn of blizzard as the Axis chimes in and says "what about the AARs where the Axis have gone in in a better condition, and come out worse"? Well, I think, but cannot confirm yet,that the morale, experience, and most importantly the armaments bugs turned the Axis army into a very fragile entity compared to the condition it was in in my tests up to October. All the bugs were introduced after my tests, due to the phenomenon of fixing one thing and breaking three others, and although we intended to have pathfinder test games that would spot any problems, games were being played much faster than the pathfinder tests, so players were finding the problems before testers were.

As Joel has noted in another thread, 1.03 does not "fix" the blizzard, and the Axis army, even with the bug fixes will be more fragile than the one I tested, but not as bad as the ones that suffered from the armaments bug. I plan to start a check list in a separate thread, of things to do to get the Axis into the best possible shape to face the blizzard.

A stronger Axis army will reduce the ability of a weaker SU Army to attack it, but again I don't know the "tipping point" that will get the number of soviet successful attacks below the "Manageable" threshold of 45ish. And again, the only benchmark I have is my game with Trey. I have asked Joel if he will move the AAR of this game from the development forums to the public forums to help me better illustrate the points I have been trying to make.

I based the house rules suggested in another thread on my assessment of the current fragility of the Axis army under V1.03, so I think the Soviet punch, will stagger, but not shatter the Axis.



Q-Ball -> RE: WINTER OF 41 (3/2/2011 11:53:44 PM)

I'm restarting my game with Von Beanie, with Bob's house rules. I think it will help alot. If I emerge in OK shape, then we'll see how 42-43-44 go.

I will remind anyone that gives up so early, it took 5 years to get WITP-AE "Right", and that was a complex game engine. This is also a complex game engine, there are so many levers to pull, that it's very tough to do it "Right" the first time.

I still had fun against Von Beanie getting my butt handed to me, so approach it in that spirit, and give Bob and the testers the data they need to tweak it to make it better.

PS: If you are playing against the AI, winter works fine. The AI needs the extra "Help" IMO. If you are still losing, you need to play better.



pompack -> RE: WINTER OF 41 (3/3/2011 1:29:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

Pompack does make a very valid point that applies equally to AI and PBEM games, in that the relative condition of the 2 armies going into the blizzard has a major influence on the condition of the 2 armies coming out of the Blizzard, although I disagree with him about the location of the front line not mattering.




Oh, I get carried away with the rhetoric sometimes (many times? Usually? Always? whatever [:D])

I was just trying to point out that if you take Leningrad, sit on the outskirts of Moscow and fort up in Rostov after inflicting 3,000,000 casualties then you are in for a very rough winter. OTOH if you are holding the line Riga-Minsk-Vinnitsa-Odessa after slaughtering 5,000,000 then you should count on an auto victory NLT mid43.

The amount of progress you make does matter but so far it seems to be secondery to inflicted casualties in the AARs and my experience to date. I wish that I could demonstrate that a pure Comrade Robinovski can be defeated but so far I have not seen it.



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