Leningrad First: by Von Rundstedt (Full Version)

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MilRevKo -> Leningrad First: by Von Rundstedt (2/5/2011 7:00:09 PM)


In "German Generals Talk" a master piece by B. Liddle Hart , an interview with G. Von Rundstedt discusses the greatest failure of the war on the German part was the failure to drive to Leningrad and take it in the summer of 41.

I am only learning the game and I have had several starts as the German against the AI. ( 'Iam using the AI as a learning tool)

I have read in the forum that in a pbem game the taking of Moscow in 41 is dangerous because the winter counter attack will grind the German smth fierce...

With that in mind has any one used the Leningrad first approach?

What is the upside-downside?




Q-Ball -> RE: Leningrad First: by Von Rundstedt (2/5/2011 7:05:24 PM)

I personally think Leningrad is the most desirable target for several reasons.

First, once you take it, you free the Finns, which are invaluable in the first Winter. You can also straighten the line such that taking Leningrad will shorten, not lengthen, your overall defense line. Freeing up the Finns alone basically will free-up an entire German army.

The problem is taking it. At the moment, swamps are mini-fortresses. The Volkov River line, which you need to cross to really isolate Leningrad, is impregnible between the major rivers and swamps, if the Russians fortify it.

So the risk in Leningrad is going all-in and getting stuck anyway due to the terrain. And tanks don't really do much good.

I suspect that after the next patch blunts the swamp effect, you'll see more players go Leningrad first.





Marquo -> RE: Leningrad First: by Von Rundstedt (2/5/2011 7:29:14 PM)

I can now take against the AI in 14 turns...[:D]

Marquo




MilRevKo -> RE: Leningrad First: by Von Rundstedt (2/5/2011 8:23:41 PM)

Yes, that is along the lines of waht I was thinking

But, as I am only playing the AI I try to keep in mind that things will be very different vs. a pbem game

Situation turn 15, after the axis attack...

[image]local://upfiles/22840/A34719BFD02942B9A116789F18A6B8E3.gif[/image]




MilRevKo -> RE: Leningrad First: by Von Rundstedt (2/5/2011 8:25:42 PM)

And, the book mentioned before:

[image]local://upfiles/22840/F0E956FCE178443EB68C10D572C438C5.jpg[/image]




2ndACR -> RE: Leningrad First: by Von Rundstedt (2/5/2011 8:54:30 PM)

Yep, right now, against a human, it takes serious work to even get close to Leningrad. Always remember that.




bloomstombs -> RE: Leningrad First: by Von Rundstedt (2/5/2011 10:24:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Yep, right now, against a human, it takes serious work to even get close to Leningrad. Always remember that.

quote:

ou take it, you free the Finns, which are invaluable in the first Winter. You can also straighten the line such that taking Leningrad will shorten, not lengthen, your overall defense line. Freeing up the Finns alone basically will free-up an entire German army.


Did this get easier with the patch? I mean with the swamps being nerfed.




Mynok -> RE: Leningrad First: by Von Rundstedt (2/5/2011 11:36:14 PM)


The swamps aren't a problem even now if you bring as much as the picture above shows. Scheiss, he has all of 3rd panzer, 2nd army and parts of 11th army up there to go with the usuall 18th and 16th.

I wanna see the rest of the map for that one. He's probably still trying to get past Minsk and Rovno.




sillyflower -> RE: Leningrad First: by Von Rundstedt (2/6/2011 11:45:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


The swamps aren't a problem even now if you bring as much as the picture above shows. Scheiss, he has all of 3rd panzer, 2nd army and parts of 11th army up there to go with the usuall 18th and 16th.

I wanna see the rest of the map for that one. He's probably still trying to get past Minsk and Rovno.



My money is still on he doesn't take it as there is no chance imo of isolating L now before bad weather or taking it in the snow and we all know what will happen next.




Krieg -> RE: Leningrad First: by Von Rundstedt (2/9/2011 2:26:58 AM)

MilRevKo brings up an interesting question. Almost every piece of literature out there agrees Germany's operational level goals were not in line with National and Strategic objectives. Therefore the main idea of encircle and kill/capture the Soviet Army as far West as possible did not lead the German's to success in 41, so I do not know why it should be tried in WiTE (other than to just play along historical lines). Other posts say the Germans dont stand a chance and that might be true, but if you take a different approach and not follow in the Germans historical foot steps might the campaign be more successful for them and you? Has anyone tried to strip AGC or AGS of forces to throw them into AGN to capture Leningrad in 41? Or any other radically different approach to how AGN, AGC, and AGS conducted operations for that matter? I am not talking about detaching a PNZR Corps but more detaching whole Armies to support the operations? Sure by turn 21 AGC might only be near Minsk and maybe AGS might not be near Kiev but with the Fins and a strong force North of the Soviet Lines, they would have to spend the winter digging you out of Lenigrad because come the spring, if the do not, a strong counter attack is possible from there. AGC has the strongest forces available for the purpose of encireclement and to reach Moscow. I dont know too many players who get to Moscow in 41 and hold it through the Winter (agaisnt a Human opponent). So if it unlikely to achieve their objectives, why keep that Army Group the strongest? AGN and AGS has some very real options if given the right balance of forces to achieve their objectives. Anyways just a thought.




Mynok -> RE: Leningrad First: by Von Rundstedt (2/9/2011 3:24:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


The swamps aren't a problem even now if you bring as much as the picture above shows. Scheiss, he has all of 3rd panzer, 2nd army and parts of 11th army up there to go with the usuall 18th and 16th.

I wanna see the rest of the map for that one. He's probably still trying to get past Minsk and Rovno.



My money is still on he doesn't take it as there is no chance imo of isolating L now before bad weather or taking it in the snow and we all know what will happen next.


We can't see the fort levels so there's no way to know that. He has the forces to take the two hexes on the east side of the isthumus of Leningrad. That will isolate it.




Swenslim -> RE: Leningrad First: by Von Rundstedt (2/9/2011 10:57:48 AM)

It is easy to take Leningrad and get major victory against soviet AI in this scenario. 




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