Mild winter as an option (Full Version)

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rominet -> Mild winter as an option (1/12/2011 2:38:29 PM)

Hi

i do well understand the aim of dev team to make a game under closest conditions than those of history. It is a success.

However, concerning the weather in Russia, it bothers me a bit.

When playing axis, everyone knows that winter will automatically be horrible.
Playing with random or non random weather doesn't change much because in both cases, there will be a large majority of blizzard turns in dec, jan and feb.
A lot of AAR show that axis players take very serious dispositions for winter even before mud.
As already said, it bothers me because it is like germans (and russians too) would have a claivoyance gift of what will happen.

Now, considering the fact that the 41-42 winter in Russia was an exceptionaly severe winter (in fact, the most severe winter in 150 years) and so is not representative of average weather conditions in Russia during winter, i wonder if it couln't be possible to choose an option at the beginning of a game in order to have a real random weather, including the possibility of a mild winter.
By mild winter, i mean a winter where snow dominates instead of blizzard.

In this way, they will probably be more various situations during this conflict.
The axis player would probably play with less fear of the next winter and not subordinate his strategy to this occurence.
And the russian player would not wait the next winter as the Messiah and not subordinate his strategy to this occurence too.

I think it shouln't be hard to do. A new option with a modified data table seen in section 22.2.2 (page 290).

PS: sorry for my random english[:D]




karonagames -> RE: Mild winter as an option (1/12/2011 3:49:16 PM)

I think this falls between the two stools of whether you want WITE to be a game and/or a simulation. Joel has stated that he wants it to be both, and to that end, the simulation of the Russian Front has to include the Russian First Winter experience. I can see as people want to explore more of the game, and look at different variants, then a milder option might be considered, but I think a lot of the the first winter rules are hard coded, and the only way around this would be to change the current blizzard turns to snow, which I think would be too mild!





Klydon -> RE: Mild winter as an option (1/12/2011 4:02:18 PM)

Observing history and replicating certain conditions is always difficult, especially when it comes to such blunders as the Axis not being fitted out for winter in Russia. Of course anyone on a "do over" is going to try to apply the lessons they learned as best they can and will generally pull the horns in for the Axis and try to be better prepared as far as their troop placements go than the Axis were historically.  There is also a learning curve to that in this game as well. A German facing their first winter in this game is going to be in for a big shock. Germans who have experience with the first winter will do much better because they know what to expect and can plan accordingly.

Of course the game does not force the Russians to move and counter attack for the first game turn or two as they historically did in many areas of the front and the Russians are also free to avoid the serious blunders they made during the winter counter offensive, especially in the south. Way I see it, it works both ways. ;)





MechFO -> RE: Mild winter as an option (1/12/2011 4:37:37 PM)

I wouldn't get rid of Winter Effects per se, but change them to apply to who was principally effected historically:

- undersupplied units far away from their railheads
- units caught in the open in, at most, level 1 forts
- units that had already been heavily attrited and heavily fatigued from constant offensive action

I would add in some global Axis supply modifiers, since their supply system did have considerable difficulty dealing with the weather, but one can use something similar to the mud mechanic for that.




janh -> RE: Mild winter as an option (1/12/2011 4:56:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak
I think this falls between the two stools of whether you want WITE to be a game and/or a simulation. Joel has stated that he wants it to be both, and to that end, the simulation of the Russian Front has to include the Russian First Winter experience.


I think that would be more between the stools of a game/simulation, and a replication of history. A simulation takes input such as the weather data and "calculates" the outcome, and if you would switch away from the historic hard winter, you could simulate and figure out how it would have been instead if the winter had been, say, the mildest in a 100 years. Admittedly, this could really skew the outcome of PBEM games, but AI won't complain...

I think rominet has a good idea with having some more variability to the (first) winter and rules, so players wouldn't just play the way they exactly know what's coming unless they select "historical weather". Else, if the goal of the game is to stay as close to history as possible, one could as also implement rules that would require the axis player to keep pushing his units until complete exhaustion, as was historically done in front of Moscow in 1941, and forbid digging in early. Or force both sides not to give any ground without defeat, i.e. implement Führer orders like "Feste Plätze". This would even more closely replicate the campaign, yet I think the power of such a game/simulation is exactly the opposite: that you can try out things that were not done, maybe violated doctrines and thinking of the time, but were "physically" possible. At least that's my opinion. But of course having both ways in the simulation as an option at game start would be the best solution.




AKCLIMBER -> RE: Mild winter as an option (1/12/2011 4:58:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

I think this falls between the two stools of whether you want WITE to be a game and/or a simulation. Joel has stated that he wants it to be both, and to that end, the simulation of the Russian Front has to include the Russian First Winter experience. I can see as people want to explore more of the game, and look at different variants, then a milder option might be considered, but I think a lot of the the first winter rules are hard coded, and the only way around this would be to change the current blizzard turns to snow, which I think would be too mild!


Agreed that there is some understandable tension between WITE being a simulation vs game. I'm firmly in the "Please make it both" camp and would love to see some alternate reality options such as milder weather choices as well as some more variability in weather event timing, etc. If indeed the first winter rules are hard coded, that seems like a short sighted, unfortunate decision. The more variability/ player choices that can be made available, the more replayable and ultimately enjoyable the game would be.

Cheers!




alfonso -> RE: Mild winter as an option (1/12/2011 5:20:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rominet

Hi

i do well understand the aim of dev team to make a game under closest conditions than those of history. It is a success.

However, concerning the weather in Russia, it bothers me a bit.

When playing axis, everyone knows that winter will automatically be horrible.
Playing with random or non random weather doesn't change much because in both cases, there will be a large majority of blizzard turns in dec, jan and feb.
A lot of AAR show that axis players take very serious dispositions for winter even before mud.
As already said, it bothers me because it is like germans (and russians too) would have a claivoyance gift of what will happen.

Now, considering the fact that the 41-42 winter in Russia was an exceptionaly severe winter (in fact, the most severe winter in 150 years) and so is not representative of average weather conditions in Russia during winter, i wonder if it couln't be possible to choose an option at the beginning of a game in order to have a real random weather, including the possibility of a mild winter.
By mild winter, i mean a winter where snow dominates instead of blizzard.

In this way, they will probably be more various situations during this conflict.
The axis player would probably play with less fear of the next winter and not subordinate his strategy to this occurence.
And the russian player would not wait the next winter as the Messiah and not subordinate his strategy to this occurence too.

I think it shouln't be hard to do. A new option with a modified data table seen in section 22.2.2 (page 290).

PS: sorry for my random english[:D]


I agree completely. As every German player knows from June 1941 that there will be a First Winter Experience, it loses much of their historicity. The Russian also knows that, so perhaps it does not change the game balance too much. Besides, both sides know there will be a Panther tank, Lend-Lease, a Second Front, and that the Soviet population will not make revolts against Stalin. It seems impossible to make historic games placing you exactly in the same ignorant boots of your historic counterparts.




Nicholas Bell -> RE: Mild winter as an option (1/12/2011 5:24:20 PM)

It should be noted that the weather design is not at all accurate for the winter of 1943-44 which was mild.  The mud did not arrive until mid-November in the central and southern areas, and there was no appreciable snowfall until the middle to end of December (dependent on where one was - AGN had some snow early obviously).   These weather conditions made possible the heavy German counterattacks in the Dneipr Bend and around Kiev in November and December.   In February there were also extended thaw periods.  These conditions are not possible in the game at this time.

So if the design is intent on hard coding the hard winter of 1941, how about also at least making possible the *other* mild winter?




Mynok -> RE: Mild winter as an option (1/12/2011 5:26:37 PM)

quote:

It seems impossible to make historic games placing you exactly in the same ignorant boots of your historic counterparts.


It is most certainly impossible, and logically so. Nonetheless there are those out there who demand such things. [8|][:D]

Besides, the most enjoyable part of games for me is changing the historical outcome by doing better.




bwheatley -> RE: Mild winter as an option (1/12/2011 5:44:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AKCLIMBER


quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

I think this falls between the two stools of whether you want WITE to be a game and/or a simulation. Joel has stated that he wants it to be both, and to that end, the simulation of the Russian Front has to include the Russian First Winter experience. I can see as people want to explore more of the game, and look at different variants, then a milder option might be considered, but I think a lot of the the first winter rules are hard coded, and the only way around this would be to change the current blizzard turns to snow, which I think would be too mild!


Agreed that there is some understandable tension between WITE being a simulation vs game. I'm firmly in the "Please make it both" camp and would love to see some alternate reality options such as milder weather choices as well as some more variability in weather event timing, etc. If indeed the first winter rules are hard coded, that seems like a short sighted, unfortunate decision. The more variability/ player choices that can be made available, the more replayable and ultimately enjoyable the game would be.

Cheers!



In another thread i requested a variant feature where you could select things you wanted to have.
some examples:
no retreat for germans in winter
no harsh winter
soviet random non-movement in the early war
etc
a few of those switches would let people fine tune the game to the way they would like to play it. And i for see eventually they will get added. Similar to the WITP historical dud american torpodoes etc.




bwheatley -> RE: Mild winter as an option (1/12/2011 5:45:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

quote:

It seems impossible to make historic games placing you exactly in the same ignorant boots of your historic counterparts.


It is most certainly impossible, and logically so. Nonetheless there are those out there who demand such things. [8|][:D]

Besides, the most enjoyable part of games for me is changing the historical outcome by doing better.


I agree doing better and beating the odds is half the fun playing germany or japan in witp.
But doing better in those 2 cases just means surviving longer then historically.




dazoline II -> RE: Mild winter as an option (1/12/2011 6:58:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nicholas Bell

It should be noted that the weather design is not at all accurate for the winter of 1943-44 which was mild.  The mud did not arrive until mid-November in the central and southern areas, and there was no appreciable snowfall until the middle to end of December (dependent on where one was - AGN had some snow early obviously).   These weather conditions made possible the heavy German counterattacks in the Dneipr Bend and around Kiev in November and December.   In February there were also extended thaw periods.  These conditions are not possible in the game at this time.

So if the design is intent on hard coding the hard winter of 1941, how about also at least making possible the *other* mild winter?



+1




vinnie71 -> RE: Mild winter as an option (1/12/2011 7:10:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nicholas Bell

It should be noted that the weather design is not at all accurate for the winter of 1943-44 which was mild.  The mud did not arrive until mid-November in the central and southern areas, and there was no appreciable snowfall until the middle to end of December (dependent on where one was - AGN had some snow early obviously).   These weather conditions made possible the heavy German counterattacks in the Dneipr Bend and around Kiev in November and December.   In February there were also extended thaw periods.  These conditions are not possible in the game at this time.



Interesting idea...

One small question though. How bad are blizzard/winter turns from '42 onwards?




karonagames -> RE: Mild winter as an option (1/12/2011 7:16:27 PM)

quote:

How bad are blizzard/winter turns from '42 onwards?


There are no extra penalties applied to the axis; both sides will have supplies affected equally and have the same movement penalties.




vinnie71 -> RE: Mild winter as an option (1/12/2011 7:30:18 PM)

So basically it gets bad for everyone? Good.




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