SUPPLY difficult to understand (Full Version)

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Repsol -> SUPPLY difficult to understand (1/9/2011 5:57:02 PM)

Hello...

I feel that the supply part of the game is hard to understand...
Among other things a cant make sence of the numbers in the SUPPLY DETAIL SCREEN...
The example below is from the - Road to Leningrad scenario and the LVI panzercorps...


According to the SUPPLY DETAIL SCREEN of the LVI PANZER CORPS HQ

The combined need for FUEL of the entire corps (all units attached) is 537 tons...as below:

...............................Phase.1.............Phase.2

'Fuel recieved...........145 (537)...........174 (392)'
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But if you add up the individual FUEL NEED values of the units attached:

- 8th Pz div........218
- 3rd Mot. Div.....151
- Totenkopf........217
-----------------------
586

You get 586 tons and if you add the corps HQs need you get 623 tons to compare to
the 537 tons needed according to the SUPPLY DETAIL SCREEN...

Question 1: Why the differens ?


According to the SUPPLY DETAIL SCREEN of the LVI PANZER CORPS HQ

it has delivered 95 % of the needed fuel to its attached units...as below:

.............................Phase.1............Phase.2

HQ FUEL %.................50..................45
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Question 2: Or am i misstaking if i add up phase 1 and 2 to get the total amount delivered ?

Looking at the individual units you get this...:

................................Phase.1.....................Phase.2
FUEL RECIVED;

8th Pz. div.................(5 %) 62.......................-
3rd Mot. div...............(9 %) 42.......................-
Totenkops.................(13 %) 56......................-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Question 3:

According to the SUPPLY DETAIL SCREEN of the LVI PANZER CORPS HQ The corps HQ have delivered
45 % of needed fuel in PHASE 2 but none of the attached units have recieved any fuel at all
in the second SUPPLY PHASE...Why is that ?

Question 4:

Take the 8th Pz. div. it has recieved 62 tons of fuel and according to its SUPPLY DETAIL SCREEN
that is 5 % of its needed fuel...How can that be ? It only NEEDS 218 tons and have recieved
62 tons...thats alot more than 5 %

Question 5:

If you add up the individual FUEL RECIVED of the 3 division and compare that to their
FUEL NEED you get 160 tons RECIVED and 586 tons NEEDED...That would be 27 % No where near
95 % (or even 50 % or 45 %)

HOW SHOULD I READ THEESE NUMBERS ? WHAT AM I DOING WRONG ?

If someone please could explaine how to interpret theese numbers with this Fuel issue
i hope it will become more clear to me how to use this information...

Thanks !




Repsol -> RE: SUPPLY difficult to understand (1/9/2011 6:01:09 PM)

uups...It did not turn out to pretty when i posted it...i will try ro clean it up




BASB -> RE: SUPPLY difficult to understand (1/9/2011 10:39:35 PM)

Something I'm confused with is phase 1 and 2. So I just finished playing the road Leningrad. I had trouble supplying my map panzer units. As I understand the the supply system keep Div with 5 hexes of corps in turn corps 15 hexes from armies and armies with 45 of AG and AG close to railroads, have plenty trucks and the supply should ok, but is not the case. I did all this and my armd units still only had between 10 and 15 MP each turn. What am I missing?




Timmeh -> RE: SUPPLY difficult to understand (1/9/2011 10:48:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BASB

Something I'm confused with is phase 1 and 2. So I just finished playing the road Leningrad. I had trouble supplying my map panzer units. As I understand the the supply system keep Div with 5 hexes of corps in turn corps 15 hexes from armies and armies with 45 of AG and AG close to railroads, have plenty trucks and the supply should ok, but is not the case. I did all this and my armd units still only had between 10 and 15 MP each turn. What am I missing?


corps dont supply from army, they supply from a railhead. if the div is more than the max away from corp, but still close enough to a railhead it will attempt supply from there only in phase two.






Helpless -> RE: SUPPLY difficult to understand (1/9/2011 11:32:26 PM)

quote:

Question 1: Why the differens ?


It is not clear when are these "NEEDS" taken from, but you should keep in mind that "needs" are dynamic values with back-loop dependencies. For example, more vehicles generate fuel need and more fuel generate more vehicle need. So if you look at those values at the end of the supply phase, values may differ from those at the moment when actual supply happened because of replacements, attrition, etc.

quote:


According to the SUPPLY DETAIL SCREEN of the LVI PANZER CORPS HQ

it has delivered 95 % of the needed fuel to its attached units...as below:

.............................Phase.1............Phase.2

HQ FUEL %.................50..................45
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Question 2: Or am i misstaking if i add up phase 1 and 2 to get the total amount delivered ?


Those values doesn't show the % delivered, but the amount local HQ storage (dumps) with respect to the requirement of generated by the attached units.

quote:

According to the SUPPLY DETAIL SCREEN of the LVI PANZER CORPS HQ The corps HQ have delivered
45 % of needed fuel in PHASE 2 but none of the attached units have recieved any fuel at all
in the second SUPPLY PHASE...Why is that ?


No supply/fuel sent to the non-HQ units in the second phase if they got something in phase 1.

quote:

Question 4:

Take the 8th Pz. div. it has recieved 62 tons of fuel and according to its SUPPLY DETAIL SCREEN
that is 5 % of its needed fuel...How can that be ? It only NEEDS 218 tons and have recieved
62 tons...thats alot more than 5 %



5% is the amount of supplies/fuel in unit before the supply phases, not the amout received.

quote:

Question 5:

If you add up the individual FUEL RECIVED of the 3 division and compare that to their
FUEL NEED you get 160 tons RECIVED and 586 tons NEEDED...That would be 27 % No where near
95 % (or even 50 % or 45 %)


As said before, you are using wrong interpretation of those % values.




BASB -> RE: SUPPLY difficult to understand (1/10/2011 12:27:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Timmeh

quote:

ORIGINAL: BASB

Something I'm confused with is phase 1 and 2. So I just finished playing the road Leningrad. I had trouble supplying my map panzer units. As I understand the the supply system keep Div with 5 hexes of corps in turn corps 15 hexes from armies and armies with 45 of AG and AG close to railroads, have plenty trucks and the supply should ok, but is not the case. I did all this and my armd units still only had between 10 and 15 MP each turn. What am I missing?


corps dont supply from army, they supply from a railhead. if the div is more than the max away from corp, but still close enough to a railhead it will attempt supply from there only in phase two.



Why? The supply rules certainly try to complicate things. Why doesn't supply in the game follow the same principles of real life. Why do corps have to supply from a rail network they should first resupply from their nearest HQs before the rail head. A tiered HQ system is for C & C which includes supply! Basically to maintain full supply to combat unit, advances can only move as fast as the rail system is repaired, perhaps too much importance is placed on the Rail network and not enough on the road transport system. The game system of resup is leaning towards modern day pipeline supply as opposed to transhipment points and transit areas of the WW2 period.

Just checking the rules again, it appears buildup is a form of prioritisation




BASB -> RE: SUPPLY difficult to understand (1/10/2011 12:35:30 AM)

Another issue that's missing from the supply mechanics is prioritisation, there be a mechanism that allows the player to push supply towards HQ and combat units that have a greater need depending tasks. Hq units should assign low, medium or high priority designations to regulate the flow of supplies.




Repsol -> RE: SUPPLY difficult to understand (1/10/2011 5:51:39 AM)

BASB...

The CORPS HQ will be supplied by rail if within 25 hexes AND 100 MP of railhead and it will in turn deliver supply to its attached units
if they are within 5 hexes AND 20 MP of the CORPS HQ...If the attached units are not within thoose limits they will try to resupply from the
closest railhead. But just like the corps hq...They then have to be within 25 hexes or 100 MP from the railhead to get that to work...

The units will try to get supply first from the corps HQ (Phase 1) but if that deos not work then theres a backup as i understand it and the
units will try to resupply from the railhead (Phase 2)...




BASB -> RE: SUPPLY difficult to understand (1/10/2011 8:14:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Repsol

BASB...

The CORPS HQ will be supplied by rail if within 25 hexes AND 100 MP of railhead and it will in turn deliver supply to its attached units
if they are within 5 hexes AND 20 MP of the CORPS HQ...If the attached units are not within thoose limits they will try to resupply from the
closest railhead. But just like the corps hq...They then have to be within 25 hexes or 100 MP from the railhead to get that to work...

The units will try to get supply first from the corps HQ (Phase 1) but if that deos not work then theres a backup as i understand it and the
units will try to resupply from the railhead (Phase 2)...


Repsol

Yes I understand that. I have limited myself to the Road to scenarios, but in the Leningrad scenario getting up around turn 9 or 10 its starting to stretch your supply in particular fuel for mobile units. Don't forget in this scenario you only get one player controlled unit for rail repair, but you have paths north and south. If your moving tank and motorised units as quickly as you need to, to win the scenario they out move their supply quickly. Also there only two tpt air wing for air sup too.




BASB -> RE: SUPPLY difficult to understand (1/10/2011 8:24:58 AM)

A couple other points, why do AG and Armies have supply dumps if they supply down the line? I have always believed supply come down the from the highest level of control. In this WITE model, effectively combat can't operate any further away from a rail head than 300 km without penalties. not far in a place like Russia.




Repsol -> RE: SUPPLY difficult to understand (1/10/2011 11:30:29 AM)

I think that was the very problems the germans had in real life...

The answer to your question about why army and army group HQ having DUMPs to i think would be
that you can have combat units directly attached to thoose HQs aswell...I you want to you can attach
an inf.div to a army group HQ and that HQ would then supply the inf.div if within 5 hexes and 20 MP...





Fänrik Stål -> RE: SUPPLY difficult to understand (1/10/2011 11:30:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BASB


Also there only two tpt air wing for air sup too.

You can use level bombers for air supply. Just shift-right-click on the unit in air supply mode.




Repsol -> RE: SUPPLY difficult to understand (1/10/2011 11:56:32 AM)

Helpless, thanks for your answers...[:)]

'Those values doesn't show the %delivered, but the amount local HQ storage (dumps) with respect to the requirement of generated by the attached units'

Question.1...OK...Thoose values reprecent fuel delivered from the HQs fuel dumps to attached units...50 % in Phase.1 and 45 % in Phase.2...?
Question.2...Should not that mean that the attached units recived 95 % of the needed fuel for the turn (50 + 45) ?

from the manual:

' HQ fuel %: The precentage of required fuel for attached units that the HQ was able to deliver in each of the two supply delivery sub segments.'
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My AXIS RAIL SUPPLY says 62 %

Question.3.

Does that mean that the best i can hope for is to get 62 % of the NEEDED supply delivered by rail (to HQs and out of HQ range combat units) ?
But that the HQ may supply the attached combat units to a higher level of supply recieved by using its DUMPS ?

Thanks !




Repsol -> RE: SUPPLY difficult to understand (1/10/2011 4:11:50 PM)

I will try to explain a bit more what i don't understand about question 1 and 2 in the post above....

In the combat units SUPPLY DETAIL SCREEN i understand that supply phase 1 is what was delivered from the superior HQ to the combat units
and phase.2 represents what was drawn from the rail head by combat units not recieving any supply from the HQ...

But the HQ SUPPLY DETAIL SCREEN with regard to the line:

HQ fuel % Phase1 and phase 2...

I don't understand what thoose to phases represent...It couldn't be phase1 (HQ delivery) and phase2 (rail delivery) as for combat units...
So what do this mean ? should i add them together to get the total amount delivered during the turn ? I don't think so but i don't know...
How should i read this ?

Also one more question...

What is the best way to move the army HQs to put the least burden on the motorpool in the long run...Corps HQ i have to move almost every turn
that my units advance to keep in range but should i move the army HQ a few hexes every turn or wait until it is almost out of range and move
it almost all the way up to the froint ( if i can keep it protected)...?

thanks




MechFO -> RE: SUPPLY difficult to understand (1/10/2011 7:45:18 PM)

Since I didn't get any echo in my original thread, I'm going to repost here:


Reading the manual, my understanding is that units will try to draw their Supply Need + X from the HQ (in range). The HQ in turn will try to draw from the supply net. If it can't cover this, it will use some of it's dumps to make up the difference.


My questions are,

how much supply do units actually try to draw?


How do they try to build up depleted unit stocks. I have Pz/Mot units near Kiev with an off-rail MP of 25, stationary for 3 turns, ample HQ dumps (150+S, 100+F), but hardly recovering any of their supply stockpile. Current needs are JUST being met with sometimes a small surplus going to unit stocks. The HQ is depleting it's Supply Dumps, but very slowly (150->100 in 3 turn).

Another example has adjacent Inf Divs with the same HQ, 190 S dumps, getting supply deliveries as divergent as 30 and 50. (Off rail MP 30)

Other Inf Divs, are getting up to a 100 tons per turn. (off rail MP 25), HQ with 250 S dumps.

I can't figure out where the divergent results are coming from.



if the HQ has to give up dumps, how does this work?

Are only a % of total dumps released per turn? As mentioned, I have HQ's with lots of dumps next to units who are not even having their turn needs filled and down to a 20% stockpile. How and when are these Dumps released? Can this be influenced? Rather than losing x number of trucks to move a HQ with hundreds of dumps while having adjacent units surviving by a thread, I'd rather have the unit receive extra supplies, but this doesn't seem to happen.



Any explanations would be welcome.

If needed I can supply saves or SS.




Helpless -> RE: SUPPLY difficult to understand (1/10/2011 10:09:31 PM)

quote:

Question.2...Should not that mean that the attached units recived 95 % of the needed fuel for the turn (50 + 45) ?

from the manual:

' HQ fuel %: The precentage of required fuel for attached units that the HQ was able to deliver in each of the two supply delivery sub segments.'


I think manual is a bit misleading. This is not the amount HQ was able to deliver, but the amount the HQ has on hand versus the needs of attached units. In other words, there was just 50% of all needs at the P1 and 45% at P2. P2 is not that important since there is no delivery to the units at this phase, but accumulated supplies can be used next P1.

quote:

Does that mean that the best i can hope for is to get 62 % of the NEEDED supply delivered by rail (to HQs and out of HQ range combat units) ?
But that the HQ may supply the attached combat units to a higher level of supply recieved by using its DUMPS ?


62% is modifier for the rail supply (supply which goes to HQ and supply which goes directly to the unit in P2), the supply which goes from HQ to unit is not affected by this modifier. So if you have enough dumps you can have more than 62%




Helpless -> RE: SUPPLY difficult to understand (1/10/2011 10:17:41 PM)

quote:

how much supply do units actually try to draw?


They try to draw what it missing to get 100% at the time when supply phase.

quote:

How do they try to build up depleted unit stocks. I have Pz/Mot units near Kiev with an off-rail MP of 25, stationary for 3 turns, ample HQ dumps (150+S, 100+F), but hardly recovering any of their supply stockpile. Current needs are JUST being met with sometimes a small surplus going to unit stocks. The HQ is depleting it's Supply Dumps, but very slowly (150->100 in 3 turn).

Another example has adjacent Inf Divs with the same HQ, 190 S dumps, getting supply deliveries as divergent as 30 and 50. (Off rail MP 30)

Other Inf Divs, are getting up to a 100 tons per turn. (off rail MP 25), HQ with 250 S dumps.

I can't figure out where the divergent results are coming from.



if the HQ has to give up dumps, how does this work?


Not sure I understood the question correct, but HQ won't build any stocks for the units it is not able to supply (Out of supply range). When it gives up dumps it everyone gets equal portion based on the HQ supply/fuel %. For example, HQ has 50% supplies stocks, so everyone will get at max 50% of what they are asking in phase 1.


quote:

Are only a % of total dumps released per turn? As mentioned, I have HQ's with lots of dumps next to units who are not even having their turn needs filled and down to a 20% stockpile. How and when are these Dumps released? Can this be influenced? Rather than losing x number of trucks to move a HQ with hundreds of dumps while having adjacent units surviving by a thread, I'd rather have the unit receive extra supplies, but this doesn't seem to happen.


Hard to comment without actual data. Theoretically if there is no negative modifiers (ex. vehicles in unit) unit should be able to draw all supplies from the HQ dumps.




MechFO -> RE: SUPPLY difficult to understand (1/11/2011 12:17:15 AM)

Initial Situation turn 9



[image]local://upfiles/25206/448263E17AF7460E962E845C536EFFE9.jpg[/image]




MechFO -> RE: SUPPLY difficult to understand (1/11/2011 12:21:15 AM)

Turn 10:



[image]local://upfiles/25206/8CF75A6FF928446E8B4B511CA45B9993.jpg[/image]




MechFO -> RE: SUPPLY difficult to understand (1/11/2011 12:23:26 AM)

Turn11



[image]local://upfiles/25206/BB1BB9F5006F44B1B34909181ADFE393.jpg[/image]




MechFO -> RE: SUPPLY difficult to understand (1/11/2011 12:26:17 AM)

Turn12:



[image]local://upfiles/25206/6F4B86A3BEF148A49A809E4AB3049020.jpg[/image]




MechFO -> RE: SUPPLY difficult to understand (1/11/2011 12:39:33 AM)

Supply Rep:



[image]local://upfiles/25206/8F3043B9E51E47CAAF6759F01F256016.jpg[/image]

For completeness:

the 3rd Pz Div of the Korps received:

13th Pz Div

7 Supply, consumed 10
37 Fuel




MechFO -> RE: SUPPLY difficult to understand (1/11/2011 12:40:00 AM)

T10

[image]local://upfiles/25206/B6A2097F5F4E48348856E2D3FA4CCE92.jpg[/image]

13th Panzer:

Supply: 16, consumed 10
Fuel: 48




MechFO -> RE: SUPPLY difficult to understand (1/11/2011 12:40:28 AM)

T11


[image]local://upfiles/25206/EA5399FE3ACF44A5BBC957C428298D98.jpg[/image]

13th Pz:

Supply: 29, consumed 32
Fuel:37




MechFO -> RE: SUPPLY difficult to understand (1/11/2011 12:40:56 AM)

T12




[image]local://upfiles/25206/3958175EA89F48FFA4523539464195F7.jpg[/image]


13th Panzer

Supply 47, consumed 51
Fuel 29




MechFO -> RE: SUPPLY difficult to understand (1/11/2011 12:52:06 AM)

One of the Infantry Situations I mentioned:

One turn later, this HQ had over 300 dumps, while the units were still starving



[image]local://upfiles/25206/CE6D23763B384E72B044B54B6398ECB5.jpg[/image]




MechFO -> RE: SUPPLY difficult to understand (1/11/2011 12:52:53 AM)

As I understand they should be getting more:



[image]local://upfiles/25206/730F9D1490884E54BC0F6AA5DFBAE0BD.jpg[/image]

Next turn, as mentioned, HQ S dumps swelled to 331, having drawn 591 supply over both phases (307+284).

The divisions received:

111th: 33, consumed 42
299th: 32, consumed 32
125th: 30, consumed 33

vehicle modifier for all 3 99%




MechFO -> RE: SUPPLY difficult to understand (1/11/2011 1:02:04 AM)

Meanwhile, same turn, a few hexes further south:




[image]local://upfiles/25206/52F4642D00E849FB95A016D41B4A0CCA.jpg[/image]




jomni -> RE: SUPPLY difficult to understand (1/11/2011 1:05:12 AM)

Sorry deleted post.




MechFO -> RE: SUPPLY difficult to understand (1/11/2011 1:09:07 AM)

Identical consumption, but over 30% difference in supply received, and huge difference to divisions 5-6 hexes away, even though off rail MP is similar and both HQ's have ample dumps.





[image]local://upfiles/25206/FDF50154F3D946B39C80F19AE08302DF.jpg[/image]




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