Cohesion (Full Version)

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STIENER -> Cohesion (11/8/2010 10:48:24 AM)

how long does it take a BG to re gain cohesion? i had the 107 PZ brig resting for 3 moves and it doesnt appear to have gained any cohesion? the BG's fatigue re gained but no cohesion. i thought that both fatigue AND cohesion was re gained when rested.
whats the deal?




topper6 -> RE: Cohesion (11/10/2010 8:23:05 PM)

Steiner, if i have understood this correctly, cohesion reflects more or less how many of the troops are left of the BG from it's initial setup.

This way you can never re-gain cohesion, even with reinforcements being given to the BG since, if I get it right, it always compares cohesion with the troops left in the BG with the one who where there to start with.




Andrew Williams -> RE: Cohesion (11/11/2010 2:19:57 AM)

From a WaR thread but should still be valid


Cohesion and fatigue use an internal system in the game engine called a 'trait'.   When you adjust a 'trait' value the amount of increase / decrease is scaled based on the magnitude of the current value and the magnitude of the change.  The closer to the maximum the current value is, the less of any increase is applied, and vice-versa.

As an example, if you rest a BG overnight it should recover about 1/3 the amount of cohesion it is down from the maximum.  If your BG is at 50% cohesion and your rest overnight it will be at about 66%.  If it rests overnight again it will be at about 77%.  Resting a 1% cohesion BG over night should take it to ~33%.

tLD example: Resting for one day turn in TLD (with 4 turns per day) will only get you back ~4% cohesion if you're at 50%.

Note: There are only 10 graphical states in tLD/WaR so a 4% increase may not register graphically




topper6 -> RE: Cohesion (11/11/2010 8:28:12 AM)

Gosh, guess i have no clue what cohesion is, or how it affects the gameplay.




Andrew Williams -> RE: Cohesion (11/11/2010 9:17:22 AM)

Low cohesion adversely effects your BG, try to avoid low cohesion




topper6 -> RE: Cohesion (11/11/2010 9:55:20 AM)

I've tried to get an understanding of the meaning of the word cohesion, please explain what it is then Andrew, and how to avoid low cohesion.

Ty, Henrik.




Platoon_Michael -> RE: Cohesion (11/11/2010 12:57:34 PM)

Didnt you also tell me that you Have to use the check box option of Rest BG in order for the resting to happen?
otherwise you said they were considered to still be on alert?




Andrew Williams -> RE: Cohesion (11/11/2010 6:57:33 PM)

quote:

Didnt you also tell me that you Have to use the check box option of Rest BG in order for the resting to happen?
otherwise you said they were considered to still be on alert?


Correct, that is what the Rest check box is for - Resting




Andrew Williams -> RE: Cohesion (11/11/2010 6:58:13 PM)

quote:

I've tried to get an understanding of the meaning of the word cohesion, please explain what it is then Andrew, and how to avoid low cohesion.


Avoid battle and movement




topper6 -> RE: Cohesion (11/12/2010 3:39:46 PM)

But, what IS cohesion, is it like morale or what?




Tejszd -> RE: Cohesion (11/12/2010 4:55:22 PM)

It is how organized your forces are...

A BG with less Cohesion will leave units with missing men and or not allow you to change a unit in/out of the active force.




Platoon_Michael -> RE: Cohesion (11/12/2010 6:10:38 PM)

Personally I'm not a fan of this option.
When my BG's are moving forward to fight they are then Fatigued and loose Cohesion,despite the fact they haven't even fought yet.



The Campaign text for WAR says.......
# Base cohesion cost for movement (0-512)
16
# Base cohesion cost for combat (0-512)
64
# Base fatigue cost for movement (0-512)
32
# Base fatigue cost for combat (0-512)
64

Is that from the "Chance512" Table in the workbook?
So a setting of 16 for movement cost you about 20% of Cohesion and whooping 40% Fatigue?
Your kidding me right?
40% Fatigued just for movement?

And seems to me that team doesn't get back that Fatigue or Cohesion after they move when there is no Battle.
they just keep going down,down,down,down When all your doing is bringing your BG up through the strategic map so they can fight.Only to find they are too tired and too stupid to fight.


And I don't know about you guys but I'm having a hard time accepting my Tank Crews being Fatigued.
In WAR I've seen if I put them on ambush for awhile they go back to the green saying healthy so whats the point here?




xe5 -> RE: Cohesion (11/12/2010 6:40:17 PM)

Screenshot shows cohesion/fatigue cost to the Irish Gds BG after moving 58 turns in a row. Not too shabby considering I once participated in a night training maneuver that resulted in our battery being haphazardly scattered across 3 map sheets.

[image]local://upfiles/31774/E7A358E4FD6246FB8E8CDF23EE659C9D.jpg[/image]




Andrew Williams -> RE: Cohesion (11/12/2010 7:19:34 PM)

how does 16/512 = 20%  ?




Platoon_Michael -> RE: Cohesion (11/13/2010 5:33:18 AM)

Well that's what i"m asking.

Again the Campaign.txt says.......
Base cohesion cost for movement (0-512)

Is the (0-512) from the Reference Tables of the workbook?

Looks like I was viewing the chance 128 table and not the chance 512 table in my earlier post (sorry)


My posts are for WAR,nobody else seems to be playing/posting in the WAR forums so i'm just trying to get an understanding as I'm assuming it's the same for both games.




STIENER -> RE: Cohesion (11/13/2010 5:37:45 AM)

so when you say you have to CHECK the Rest BOX, your talking about in the strat move, on the drop down order menu? i did REST my unit, for 3 turns...almost a full day, give or take and i didnt see my Cohesion get any better.
my BG had been kicked off a map and it got nailed bad with Cohesion loss. so your saying cohesion is real slow to come cack then. slower than fatique?
id say that just moving doesnt cause a BG so much cohesion loss... its battle and morale loss, but it seems to take TOO long to come back........




Andrew Williams -> RE: Cohesion (11/13/2010 6:50:56 AM)

quote:

so when you say you have to CHECK the Rest BOX, your talking about in the strat move, on the drop down order menu?


yes, if the feature is working.




STIENER -> RE: Cohesion (11/13/2010 7:38:26 AM)

thats a problem....... id have to say the rest orser doesnt appear to be working but fatique goes away when you REST. my fatique got less but i didnt see my cohesion get better.
what would be realy cool is if Oddball or Steve dropped in here to shed some light on things[:(]




Andrew Williams -> RE: Cohesion (11/13/2010 7:57:34 PM)

Let's hope Steve turns up.


:)




xe5 -> RE: Cohesion (11/13/2010 8:01:28 PM)

3 turns is half a day. The key phrase "rest a BG overnight" seems to have been ignored. The 'rest' function does work to recover both fatigue and cohesion.




Andrew Williams -> RE: Cohesion (11/13/2010 10:04:23 PM)

quote:

The key phrase "rest a BG overnight"


Corrrect.. they also are supposed to recover to a lesser extent during daylight.. don't have figures on that though as they have never been made available.... really a bit like pulling teeth.


:)




STIENER -> RE: Cohesion (11/13/2010 10:15:33 PM)

where are you guys getting your info from? in the game manual? what page? i cant find a whole lot in the manual about recouvering from cohesion.
its gonna be a tough haul for a couple of key german BG's to REST over nite.....up to 7 turns??? [&:]




Steve McClaire -> RE: Cohesion (11/13/2010 11:10:17 PM)

Reduced cohesion has two main effects:

1) It reduces the amount of purchase points the BG gains every turn.

2) It reduces the overall force morale for the BG in a battle (making your force morale 'break' easier).

The effects are not linear, however. If you keep a BG's cohesion 'in the green' (above about 70%) you won't see much of a penalty at all.   As the cohesion drops below this the effects become more pronounced.  If cohesion drops 'into the red' at the low end of the scale (below about 30-40%) the affect become magnified.

There is also an effective speed reduction to the BG if it drops below 'green' cohesion, making it act as if it were one speed rating slower, and an additional one level of speed reduction if it drops to 'red' cohesion.  The speed rating is used to determine which BG gets to move first (and interrupt the other) when they are coming at each other head-on.

As Andrew pointed about above, the rating bar for cohesion shows in 10% increments, so it won't always show small changes in the current rating.  And it is also a scaled system, so the lower the current cohesion, the more benefit you get from resting, and the higher the cohesion, the less the benefit.

All that being said, a good rule of thumb is that if you keep your cohesion bar 'in the green' (around 70-80% or above) you will rarely have to worry about the effects.  Resting overnight is generally the best strategy, but even this can be ignored for a day or two if necessary.  If it falls into the 'red' (30-40% or below) the BG will be fighting with magnified cohesion penalties.

Resting overnight will restore the most cohesion to a battle group. Resting for a day turn will restore about 20% of the full night's amount.  Also, a BG that rests will usually get to bring in replacements to fill out soldiers in depleted units, though this can fail to happen if the BG is in the moderate to low range of cohesion, or is not fully supplied.

Any movement and/or combat reduces cohesion by a small amount.  The big source of cohesion loss is losing a battle.  Being forced to retreat is a very big hit.  Just having your force morale break increases the cohesion loss for combat significantly, and there are additional penalties if you manage to lose very quickly (in the first few minutes) or in a very lopsided manner (your losses are very high and opponents losses are very low).

Hope that helps,

Steve




STIENER -> RE: Cohesion (11/13/2010 11:38:27 PM)

wow..that helped allot....thanks Steve. theres allot more to it than meets the eye.
so just to clarifie...OVERNIGHT means just the 1 Nite turn to get the most benifit.......




Andrew Williams -> RE: Cohesion (11/14/2010 1:46:12 AM)

Yes




Andrew Williams -> RE: Cohesion (11/15/2010 12:21:13 AM)

From this scenario quoted from above...

quote:

Cohesion and fatigue use an internal system in the game engine called a 'trait'.   When you adjust a 'trait' value the amount of increase / decrease is scaled based on the magnitude of the current value and the magnitude of the change.  The closer to the maximum the current value is, the less of any increase is applied, and vice-versa.

As an example, if you rest a BG overnight it should recover about 1/3 the amount of cohesion it is down from the maximum.  If your BG is at 50% cohesion and your rest overnight it will be at about 66%.  If it rests overnight again it will be at about 77%.  Resting a 1% cohesion BG over night should take it to ~33%.

tLD example: Resting for one day turn in TLD (with 4 turns per day) will only get you back ~4% cohesion if you're at 50%.

Note: There are only 10 graphical states in tLD/WaR so a 4% increase may not register graphically



Resting during a day turn... compared to a night turn

quote:

Resting for a day turn will restore about 20% of the full night's amount.


Resting during night at 50% will give you back approx 16% as opposed to approx 4% for resting during day.




xe5 -> RE: Cohesion (11/16/2010 12:40:24 AM)

If a BG sits in place on a map and engages in no activity, does it accrue any benefits similar to Rest?




Steve McClaire -> RE: Cohesion (11/18/2010 1:20:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xe5
If a BG sits in place on a map and engages in no activity, does it accrue any benefits similar to Rest?


Any BG that does not move automatically regains a small amount of cohesion. The amount is the same it would have lost, had it moved, so it's much less than resting. Not fighting just means you don't take the combat cohesion loss.






Tejszd -> RE: Cohesion (11/28/2011 4:31:05 AM)

A lot of people have stated that Cohesion's affect/impact seems very limited, here are a couple ideas to make it a bit more noticeable;

On Strat Map;
- Decrease BG speed (this is used to determine who gets to advance when two BG's move towards each other)
- Increase chance of redirection (if enabled BG's some times move the wrong way)

In battle;
- Disorganized squads on the BG Screen start with less/limited ammo




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