IJ production mistakes (Full Version)

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bigred -> IJ production mistakes (10/12/2010 5:09:40 PM)

I am currently reviewing my Jap production. My partner and I are 5 months into an RA senario.
Production mistakes I have made so far:
1. Did NOT insure every production base had over 10000supply until 15 turns ago.
2. Overproduced the Ki-27.
3. Lack of supply at every base caused all plane (oscars) production to stop except at major bases.
4. looking at this chart, how much heavy industry does japan need later in the war. I am thinking about turning off heavy industry for a while.
5. I note the -16000 HI every thirty days. Suspect this is the once a month pilot training charge.

[image]local://upfiles/27655/CA50E58488204A6B9065D9B014730074.jpg[/image]




Mike Solli -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/12/2010 5:12:53 PM)

Don't turn off the Heavy Industry factories!  If you want to conserve HI, turn off your light industry factories.  They are less economical.

1 HI factory consumes 2 fuel and 20 resources and produces 2 supply and 2 HI.
1 LI factory consumes 15 resources and produces 1 supply.




Mike Solli -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/12/2010 5:19:40 PM)

My goal is a million HI for late game.  (That's unlikely, but ya gotta have a goal, right?)  Remember that your war machine runs on HI and fuel, and your combat units run on fuel and supply.  Turn off your HI factories and you save fuel, but lose supply and HI.  In the late game, when the Allies control the sea lanes, you have to survive on what you saved.  If you run out of HI, your economy comes to a screeching halt.  So does you military.  Remember that whatever off map pools you have, the Allies can't touch (HI, aircraft, engines, to name a few).  They can keep your war machine running after your merchant fleet can't.




bigred -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/12/2010 5:31:39 PM)

So my HI is accumulating at 5000+ per day. Say 800 more days at 5000HI per day =4000000. maybe too much?




Mike Solli -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/12/2010 5:43:01 PM)

I don't think you can have too much HI in your pool.




Mike Solli -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/12/2010 5:44:27 PM)

Also, keep in mind that later in the war (can't remember exactly when) you begin to get a lot more pilots every month in training.  At 5 HI per month, that'll take a nice chunk out of your surplus HI.




bigred -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/12/2010 5:50:56 PM)

This seems to be a very good chart. Got it from this link. Credit to Damian. I do not feel organized. Currently I watch tracker, look for downward trends, then adjust upwards. I recognize not being "planned out' will cause me future problems.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2593906

-Master this diagram first ...
-Use witpTracker (or do the JWilkerson manual approach)
-Organise your production inputs and outputs
-Organise the transportation of raw materials
-Oversee the development & repair of production possiblities
-Have good stewardship of the Macro and Micro.

[image]local://upfiles/27655/B94672E129D4437EBDBCCABF4198789F.jpg[/image]




topeverest -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/12/2010 6:21:11 PM)

Mike has some very good points. +1 with them.

At the most basic, Mike is telling you that you need to macro plan the size of your economy, including the amount of stockpiling you want to achieve. within those limits, you set your production. the game will allow you to grossly overexpand. Do so only if you know why you are doing so and what you are giving up. It is not wrong to over expand if you know how, why, and when you will utilize such assets. If you dont, it is a very common fatal error.




bigred -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/12/2010 6:21:42 PM)

China oil: I am fairly sure this oil is sitting at Urumchi, which Japan did capture. Is there anything I should undertake to help this oil move to the coast?

[image]local://upfiles/27655/100C2CBB64B9481AA7C881B4ADD1720F.jpg[/image]




cap_and_gown -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/12/2010 6:23:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

My goal is a million HI for late game.  (That's unlikely, but ya gotta have a goal, right?)  Remember that your war machine runs on HI and fuel, and your combat units run on fuel and supply.  Turn off your HI factories and you save fuel, but lose supply and HI.  In the late game, when the Allies control the sea lanes, you have to survive on what you saved.  If you run out of HI, your economy comes to a screeching halt.  So does you military.  Remember that whatever off map pools you have, the Allies can't touch (HI, aircraft, engines, to name a few).  They can keep your war machine running after your merchant fleet can't.


1 million? I would shoot for something more than that. It is easy enough to get to 1 million by early 1943.

Also, HI is not the be all and end all you make it out to be. HI is important because it makes stuff. It is the stuff and the ability to use it that is important. Most importantly, there is a trade off between feeding industry and feeding the fleet. If you produce lots of HI and use it to make every ship you possibly can, but don't have any fuel to move those ships around, all that HI will have been wasted. So keep in mind you need to consider the balance between HI production and fuel consumption by the fleet.




Mike Solli -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/12/2010 6:27:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bigred

China oil: I am fairly sure this oil is sitting at Urumchi, which Japan did capture. Is there anything I should undertake to help this oil move to the coast?

[image]local://upfiles/27655/100C2CBB64B9481AA7C881B4ADD1720F.jpg[/image]


There's nothing you can do to actively move oil (or resources or fuel). I have noticed that if you pull out a commodity, the AI sometimes replaces it if there's a surplus out there somewhere. In this case, however, just let it go. The oil will eventually migrate to Pt. Arthur, where the refinery is.




topeverest -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/12/2010 6:29:02 PM)

Bigred,

fuel moves automatically overland by specific routine. As far as I know you cant affect it directly. The routine will pull it over time if there is a need and means to transport it (unblocked roads / rails.) You can create some pull demand in many cases by pulling out the resourecs or oil or fuel in a port linked to the source reasonable close and 'faking' usage that pushes more to that base. Is an art form you have to play with. Best to see if the computer will push it automatically first.




bigred -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/12/2010 6:48:07 PM)

In seven days the Yamato arrives. Strategically I must figure what to do w/ the 233 ship building points no longer needed by the Yamato. My naval build program is on track( I am comfortable) to where I am thinking about reducing naval shipbuilding and use the 233SPx3=699HI for something else. Does the game code auto que another few ships which I must then stop to reduce ship building?

Also note in this jpeg the accelerated cve's. I had alot of extra merchant points so I burned them off accelerating some merchies. Was this a mistake?


[image]local://upfiles/27655/0A00649C9EDE4128904411BCD79C9ECB.jpg[/image]




bigred -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/12/2010 6:57:41 PM)

Engine overproduction:

[image]local://upfiles/27655/6BC80267706F4C25BA5C6454AE603035.jpg[/image]




bigred -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/12/2010 7:01:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bigred

Engine overproduction: Should I convert the hitachi engine factory to something else?
Some of these planes on this list appear to be antiquanted. So I am thinking about converting the frame plants also. Not sure what is best other than stopping production on all.



[image]local://upfiles/27655/8241DD939BC84DBBA7B5661F0D29827B.jpg[/image]




Mike Solli -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/12/2010 7:10:15 PM)

Here's what the Hitachi (early) is used for. I'd recomend turning that off.



[image]local://upfiles/1598/B73F99FE177E40E99EFCD19F940948B2.jpg[/image]




Mike Solli -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/12/2010 7:14:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bigred

In seven days the Yamato arrives. Strategically I must figure what to do w/ the 233 ship building points no longer needed by the Yamato. My naval build program is on track( I am comfortable) to where I am thinking about reducing naval shipbuilding and use the 233SPx3=699HI for something else. Does the game code auto que another few ships which I must then stop to reduce ship building?

Also note in this jpeg the accelerated cve's. I had alot of extra merchant points so I burned them off accelerating some merchies. Was this a mistake?



People have different views on merchant points. Early in the war you use far less than you produce. Some people accelerate ships, and some don't. I don't because later in the war you'll use up that surplus. If I was going to accelerate something, it would be TKs. CVEs, while they have their uses, are very fragile. It doesn't take much to sink one.

Naval build points, on the other hand, are always in short supply. I like to accelerate DDs and CVs. Just my thoughts though. I recommend you decide on a plan and stick with it. If you jump around and change what you accelerate, you'll never succeed.




Mike Solli -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/12/2010 7:17:33 PM)

And here's what the Hitachi Amakaze is used for. I'd shut that one off too.



[image]local://upfiles/1598/AF816E458C5A4033A53B82932FEFF291.jpg[/image]




Mike Solli -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/12/2010 7:19:28 PM)

Are you playing with PDU on or off?




bigred -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/12/2010 7:29:09 PM)

Wow. What do I do w/ the unused engine plants? PDU is on. This is where as a newbie jap player I can make some critical mistakes. Changing those plants is alot of supply and I am using alot inoperations currently, so I may have to wait until I establish my perimiters.

Note: In the first 7 days of the game I changed the Ida plants to Oscars. Then I did notkeep supply in the bases of those changed plants above 10000. So the plants where not converting which in turn caused an Oscar shortage. This shortage has caused me to investigate the issues. probably a good thing for me as I am becoming educated on production.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Here's what the Hitachi (early) is used for. I'd recomend turning that off.



[image]local://upfiles/1598/B73F99FE177E40E99EFCD19F940948B2.jpg[/image]





Mike Solli -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/12/2010 7:35:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bigred

Wow. What do I do w/ the unused engine plants? PDU is on. This is where as a newbie jap player I can make some critical mistakes. Changing those plants is alot of supply and I am using alot inoperations currently, so I may have to wait until I establish my perimiters.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Here's what the Hitachi (early) is used for. I'd recomend turning that off.



[image]local://upfiles/1598/B73F99FE177E40E99EFCD19F940948B2.jpg[/image]




You have 3 choices with any factories:

1. Produce
2. Shut off
3. Convert to something else.

If you're worried about supply, just shut them off right now. You can convert them later. In my PBEM, I'm in Apr 42 and there are engine factories that I shut off at the beginning of the game and haven't yet converted them. Don't feel you have to convert immediately. This is a long game. A 30 point engine factory takes one month to completely convert. Look to see what your engine needs will be in the future. Backplan, taking into account your current pool, and that will tell you if you need to increase the size of a factory or if you should convert one.

By the way, you just answered your question earlier of whether you should stop HI factories. You're concerned about supply. Turning off HI factories is the last thing you want to do.




vonTirpitz -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/12/2010 7:42:46 PM)

bigred,
 
I noticed your Mitsubishi Ha-32 production is lower than needed and with only 1 in the pool it is likely that you have several aircraft not producing each turn because of the lack of engines.  I would recommend using some of that excess HI/supply and expanding your Ha-32 factories to meet the demand.  Likewise, the demand for the Ha-35 is lower than the expected need for several months so you may consider shutting down some of those factories for awhile unless you plan to expand your aircraft factories that use it.
 
Good luck!




topeverest -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/12/2010 8:14:00 PM)

I have similar views on naval and merchant points as Mike.

IMHO, it is the naval assets that win or lose most key defensive battles from midwar on. With this philosophy understood, I always pay very close attention to naval / merch production. I view the tradeoffs of acceleration to be so grave that I rarely do such. How frequently do you really know about and have a critical naval confrontation where that accelerated asset is critical to the outcome the of the battle? Think about all the ships you no longer will receive as a result. Those non-sexy AK, SC, DD and the like that need to be built too. I frequently cut back other parts of the economy to increase thes elements when necessary. And yes when it comes time to cut back production, TK are among the last to be stopped.




Q-Ball -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/12/2010 8:50:38 PM)

Comments here are good; some other notes:

1. SHIPS: Accelerate the CVs. I recommend turning off alot of sub production, especially the RO-Boats, but even the other boats. They consume too many Naval points, and won't win the war for you. Between the subs and YAMATO, you should accelerate TAIHO, and at least the first 3 UNRYUS.

Besides, you start the game with a fairly large Sub fleet.

2. VEHICLES: You need to double/triple Vehicle production; there is not near enough at start. Do this now.

3. ARMAMENTS: Don't expand. Monitor the stockpile, because you usually accumulate more than you need. Get to 100K and shut most of it off; that will help HI

You are running a big HI surplus, so you can afford to expand Engines (Ha-35 and Ha-32 are important), airframes, Vehicles, and Naval Shipyards. THAT'S what you should be doing with your HI surplus.




Mike Solli -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/12/2010 8:58:09 PM)

I only accelerate warships in my current PBEM. Many people do not agree with the way I do it. I do it in the most economical fashon.



Here's what the manual says:



"13.4.1 JAPANESE SHIP PRODUCTION
All ships remove 1 day of delay when the delay is greater than:

»» 10 * Ship Durability

This automatic delay removal does not cost Naval or Merchant shipyard points. Those ships set
for normal construction with a delay less than 10 * Ship Durability require Naval or Merchant
shipyard points equal to their durability to remove 1 delay (each day). If set to accelerated
production, the ship will remove 2 days of delay (each day) for a cost equal to 3 times its
durability. A ship that has a delay over 10 * Ship Durability and less than 30 * Ship Durability
may be accelerated. It will remove 1 additional delay (other than the free 1 delay removal) each
day for a cost of appropriate shipyard points equal to the ship’s durability."

Basically, if I want to accelerate a ship, I go to the ship availability screen in the intel screen. I click on the ship I am interested in accelerating. If I can't accelerate it, that means it's at >30*Durability days remaining. If I can I continue to click it. If I scroll through and can halt it, it's <10*Durability and it'll cost 3*Durability to accelerate. I leave it at normal. If I only have the option to set it at normal or accelerate, it's at 10-30 *Durability. If it is set at normal, it builds at 1 day per day for free. If I set it to accelerate, it builds at 2 days per day for the cost of 1*Durability.

Here's the chart. The green is the only place I accelerate:



[image]local://upfiles/1598/44A45181A177483C8EB66FF9581A5289.jpg[/image]




fabertong -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/12/2010 9:12:18 PM)

Just my quick take on this ...........is ...............listen to Major Mike....................I played a team game with Mike some time ago.....and although most of my AE games ......on a combat lvl.....are perhaps not in the shape I would like them to be......in production terms......I'm in top shape......due in no small way to learning at first hand from MM.......




John 3rd -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/12/2010 9:29:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Comments here are good; some other notes:

1. SHIPS: Accelerate the CVs. I recommend turning off alot of sub production, especially the RO-Boats, but even the other boats. They consume too many Naval points, and won't win the war for you. Between the subs and YAMATO, you should accelerate TAIHO, and at least the first 3 UNRYUS.

Besides, you start the game with a fairly large Sub fleet.

2. VEHICLES: You need to double/triple Vehicle production; there is not near enough at start. Do this now.

3. ARMAMENTS: Don't expand. Monitor the stockpile, because you usually accumulate more than you need. Get to 100K and shut most of it off; that will help HI

You are running a big HI surplus, so you can afford to expand Engines (Ha-35 and Ha-32 are important), airframes, Vehicles, and Naval Shipyards. THAT'S what you should be doing with your HI surplus.



Qball--This is a Reluctant Admiral Scenario. There is no Taiho but three Additional Shokaku-Kai CVs that come in during 1943.

BigRed--What is the date in your campaign? If you have Yamato coming in then it must be late-February/early-March. My plans--when this bad boy is done--is to restart Musashi and get her into the game by December 42.

Do you plan to build the chrome? In that I mean the two CBs and two additional CAs? The Sho-Kai's cost 100 to build each but are magnificent ships.

I've got a ton of questions but will hold off until these are answered.




Mike Solli -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/12/2010 9:43:42 PM)

Hi faber. Long time. I hope everything's going well.

I just did a little test. I guess the acceleration cost is based on how fast you want the ship vs. how long you want to wait for it.

This test assumes a durability of 10. This is very interesting. It really does depend on how long you want to wait for the ship. There were 4 options:

300-101 days/100-1 days

Normal/Normal - Days to complete: 300; Cost: 1000; Cost per Day: 3.33
Normal/Accelerate - Days to complete: 250; Cost: 1500; Cost per Day: 6.00
Accelerate/Normal - Days to complete: 200; Cost: 2000; Cost per Day: 10.00
Accelerate/Accelerate - Days to complete: 150; Cost: 2500; Cost per Day: 16.67

Very interesting. Here's the data. Check it for mistakes please:



[image]local://upfiles/1598/73659BD57FA24AA08B919B1092DCF529.jpg[/image]




bigred -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/12/2010 10:01:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: topeverest

I have similar views on naval and merchant points as Mike.

IMHO, it is the naval assets that win or lose most key defensive battles from midwar on. With this philosophy understood, I always pay very close attention to naval / merch production. I view the tradeoffs of acceleration to be so grave that I rarely do such. How frequently do you really know about and have a critical naval confrontation where that accelerated asset is critical to the outcome the of the battle? Think about all the ships you no longer will receive as a result. Those non-sexy AK, SC, DD and the like that need to be built too. I frequently cut back other parts of the economy to increase thes elements when necessary. And yes when it comes time to cut back production, TK are among the last to be stopped.


Interesting food for thought. I accelerated alot of tankers and the CVEs. This did burn alot of Merchant build points. So many I had to cut back to the current level as shown in above post. I decided to keep accelerating the CVEs and some of the tankers to the point where I have a slight negative rate as shown. I may have made a mistake accelerating all those tankers for about a month.




bigred -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/12/2010 10:11:13 PM)

FYI, this is a RA senario.
Turn april 7th.
I stopped the Yamato for a month in FEb as I was trying to figure out naval build rate. I had gone negative and needed a buffer to hold things together. Yamato due in April 15th.

Note post 12 attachment. All the crome is being built w/late arriving subs halted.

Note a severe strain is being placed on my production capabilites by the RA senario. Combined w/ my tactical strategy I am not sure I can sustain operations. Therefore I have opened my game to War Room review.

Hilo fell last turn. The effect of the Hawaii option on my fuel and supply state is a big issue.




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