Fog of War Issues? (Full Version)

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Marshal Villars -> Fog of War Issues? (9/19/2010 1:21:16 PM)


Would love your input on fog of war issues. :)

evwalt -> RE: Fog of War Issues? (9/19/2010 2:32:19 PM)

I like the fog of war as it is.  I have heard of complaints about the OVerview screen, but as this screen often does not show the exact location and often distorts the size of the forces, it doesn't give too much info.  I can't think of any examples during this period of major forces disappearing from view for an entire month without anyone knowing their general location.

On the main screen, you can determine the approximate size of enemy forces (if your scouts can find them) but not the specific breakdown of their forces.  I like this also.

terje439 -> RE: Fog of War Issues? (9/19/2010 3:24:29 PM)

One issue I have is that by clicking different provinces I might get to see the actual size of enemy armies (not in numbers but in green squares below the flag) even though those green squares are not visible as I first open the turn.

Hmm not sure that made sense...

Ok, in Pbem109, as France I am at war with Austria.
I open the game turn and the Austrian armies are only showing a ?. However if I click my different
provinces, I will usually get one that shows the Austrian army strength displayed by the green squares below it.

Not sure if it is a bug or WAD but seems odd...


evwalt -> RE: Fog of War Issues? (9/19/2010 4:04:07 PM)

I like the green squares. You are going to have some idea of the strength of the forces you face.

I have never noticed the '?' I always have the green squares.

Kingmaker -> RE: Fog of War Issues? (9/19/2010 6:41:20 PM)


Eric raises a valid point re the month long duration of a turn, however I would strongly suggest we are responding in our turn orders to information that is pertinant to and to be acted upon at the start of the month in the following turn, not 4 weeks down the line.

I again put up the following 2 links to act as a demonstration of how uncertain information was in those days and again that a lot of it came down to guesswork, ie they did not have the benifit of the Spy in the sky satallite information that the Military overview page supplies in this game, please read carefully and note the length of time it took and the gueswork involved to bring the oposing forces into action, in the case of Trafalgar March to October, now with the satalitte spy system in this game the Eglish player would only have to look at the Military overlay page to deduse in April that the french fleet had sailed to the West Indies (Westmost Atlantic sea province on the map) and give chase forcing Battle, not only that but every player on the board would also be able to see where french & English fleets are

When I raised this issue before I quoted Moores briliant campaign against Napoleon in Spain and it was suggested that Napoleon would have probably have known which province the English army was in, well obviously not as Moore escaped Napoleon and got the army to Coronna etc.

I'll give an example from a current game of the futility of haaveing the Miitary overlay spy system; I had a small Swedish army opperating deep in Russia it was being chased by what eventually became 3 Russian armies and I drew these chasing armies Southward my idea being to move into Turkish territory where Russia could not follow without provoking a war with Turkey and use the Carpathian mountains etc to shield my movements from Russia striking out at the individual armies and manouvering so as not to get traped between them, then of course I realised "Whats the ****ing point!" all Russia needs do (and every other player in the game!) is go have a looksee at the Military overlay and see exactly where I had my army, and move to counter it.

The examples of the stupidity of the Military overlay for a period that did not have Satalite spy systems could be legion; but I'm not asking for it to be removed, merely suggesting that provision be made (similar to 'Total FoW' in JT Battleground games) were for CoG EE, "Total FoW" is based on the 1 province ahead/Dipomate/Cavalry range idea in the rules and can be made an option, this I feel, is highly pertanent for PBEM games (solo games dont matter as the AI knows where every thing is anyhow) and a 'Toggle' switch in the game 'Set up' would allow for the players to decide before the game starts which option they wished to use etc.

All the Best

Marshal Villars -> RE: Fog of War Issues? (9/19/2010 7:13:42 PM)

Hey KIngmaker, good post.

You know, I am pushing to have the strategic overview reduced in its "power". For instance, I would like there to be a 30% chance you lose track of any given formation each turn.

I will take a look at the rest of your post above now.

evwalt -> RE: Fog of War Issues? (9/19/2010 8:34:28 PM)

For Kingmaker's example about Sweden's plan to operate out of Turkey, what would have prevented in real life Russian soldiers simply shadowing the Swedish troops while in Turkey?  What on earth would the Swedes have done?  Both would have been in a neutral country!  I somehow don't think the Swedes would have been attacking them, especially if Turkish soldiers were around.

Also, from my experience the Overview does NOT show a specific area.  Anyone who relies on the Overview for location or accurate strength is being foolish because the Overview does not show either accurately.

True, we are issuing orders at the beginning of a month HOWEVER this is a game.  In real life, you could alter orders during a month based upon information receiving during the month.  In a game, you can't.

For Kingmaker's examples, first I can't comment on Nelson and the French Fleet.  Those moves are simply outside the scope of the game as there are no "off map" boxes (but I think their should be...see my comments in the recommendations thread).  In the Spain example, I say again that the Overview would NOT show the exact location of forces outside what you could see on the regular map.  Napoleon certainly knew the Brits were in Spain.

I rarely use Overview for the reasons mentioned above.  However, I would hate to see time wasted on changes that are not necessary.  That being said, a simple toggle to turn off Overview as Kingmaker might be the easiest way to allow this to be altered.

Kingmaker -> RE: Fog of War Issues? (9/20/2010 5:09:33 PM)


a simple toggle to turn off Overview as Kingmaker might be the easiest way to allow this to be altered

Thats all I'm asking for.

As I see it there is little point in wasting time redusing/increasing/converting/adding Purple polkadots or whatever when surely it would be far easier, & Quicker to add a 'Toggle' and line of script denoting "Extreem FoW" to the 'Start up' menue, then those folk that wished to play with the current "Spy in the sky" system could continue to do so, but, there would then at least be an option for those who prefer to play the game with a more historically acurate FoW.

All the Best

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