Allied SS torpedo expenditure (Full Version)

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hbrsvl -> Allied SS torpedo expenditure (9/4/2010 8:12:36 PM)

Hi-v1106g(or latest), scen.9, 1/8/43.

I noted that sometimes US SS captains fire 6 torps at one time at xAKLs.
This seems excessive to me, given size of target.

Is anyone else seeing this? Is there some way to correct this lavish use of torps?

Thanks, Hugh Browne




peacemaker1945 -> RE: Allied SS torpedo expenditure (9/4/2010 8:22:42 PM)

As far as I know, SS always shoot only salvos no matter of target size.




Don Bowen -> RE: Allied SS torpedo expenditure (9/4/2010 8:28:35 PM)


Subs (in fact any ship) can never shoot less than one "line" as defined in the editor. If a sub's forward tubes are defined as one line of 6, it can only shoot six. If it's forward tubes are defined as 2, 2, 2 - it can shoot 2 or 4 or six (depending on value of target).





topeverest -> RE: Allied SS torpedo expenditure (9/4/2010 9:27:01 PM)

Don, thanks, if you have a sub with a 2 / 2 / 2, how does the current engine decide how many tubes to fire. e.g. always 6 at CL or larger, 2 for akl and patrol / minor, and 4 for everything else? etc...




witpqs -> RE: Allied SS torpedo expenditure (9/4/2010 9:44:38 PM)

IIRC it was in the last patch or two (think it was Patch 3) that it will shoot lesser amounts of 'lines' for lesser targets. So maybe 2+2+2 for BB, CV, but only 2 for xAKL.




JWE -> RE: Allied SS torpedo expenditure (9/4/2010 10:26:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs
IIRC it was in the last patch or two (think it was Patch 3) that it will shoot lesser amounts of 'lines' for lesser targets. So maybe 2+2+2 for BB, CV, but only 2 for xAKL.

It's actually implemented in scenario data. The code was tweaked to handle it, but split tube data is only implemented in BabesLite, BigBabes, or other mods that use the system. It is NOT currently implemented in stock. In a stock scenario, if the tube device line says 4 or 6, you will shoot 4 or 6, regardless of target.

Rumour has it that if there is an eventual future data patch, the future patch may include the split tube system for stock submarines. But it is not available now (except in mods).




witpqs -> RE: Allied SS torpedo expenditure (9/4/2010 10:42:31 PM)

I should have been more explicit. I said "lines" referring to Don's post but didn't explain.




SuluSea -> RE: Allied SS torpedo expenditure (9/5/2010 7:09:22 PM)

I remember reading in Silent Victory how some sub captains were relieved because of wasting torps & poor results, maybe a thought for a different thread but it would be cool if the wasting of torpedoes could be directly tied in to the captains skill.




witpqs -> RE: Allied SS torpedo expenditure (9/5/2010 10:17:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

I remember reading in Silent Victory how some sub captains were relieved because of wasting torps & poor results, maybe a thought for a different thread but it would be cool if the wasting of torpedoes could be directly tied in to the captains skill.


I thought that the wasting torps thing was part of the row over defective torpedoes, where initially the captains were blamed and brass didn't believe their reports of faulty torpedoes.




Don Bowen -> RE: Allied SS torpedo expenditure (9/5/2010 10:27:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: topeverest

Don, thanks, if you have a sub with a 2 / 2 / 2, how does the current engine decide how many tubes to fire. e.g. always 6 at CL or larger, 2 for akl and patrol / minor, and 4 for everything else? etc...


Based on the perceived value of the target (with fog of war) and the captain's skill ratings.




John Lansford -> RE: Allied SS torpedo expenditure (9/5/2010 11:19:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

I remember reading in Silent Victory how some sub captains were relieved because of wasting torps & poor results, maybe a thought for a different thread but it would be cool if the wasting of torpedoes could be directly tied in to the captains skill.


I thought that the wasting torps thing was part of the row over defective torpedoes, where initially the captains were blamed and brass didn't believe their reports of faulty torpedoes.


Early on, when torpedo stocks were fairly restricted, commanders were told to rely on the magnetic exploder and only fire one torpedo at merchant targets, two at warships. If correctly aimed that's all that would be needed to sink any ship, or so they thought. Using more than that, especially if nothing was sunk, was considered being too cautious (perhaps firing from too far a range) and commanders would get reprimanded.

After the bugs were fixed and torpedo supplies were plentiful, no one seemed to care how many torpedoes were fired.




castor troy -> RE: Allied SS torpedo expenditure (9/6/2010 8:10:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

I remember reading in Silent Victory how some sub captains were relieved because of wasting torps & poor results, maybe a thought for a different thread but it would be cool if the wasting of torpedoes could be directly tied in to the captains skill.



I would have run out of skippers already if I wouldn´t accept the need of two dozen torps to sink one freighter. Guess the average is somewhere between 12 and 18 at the moment and it´s mid 43. Result of full salvoes, duds and misses.




henry1611 -> RE: Allied SS torpedo expenditure (9/6/2010 4:38:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

Subs (in fact any ship) can never shoot less than one "line" as defined in the editor.


Presumably then, a destroyer can only shoot a single "line" if that is how the torpedo data for that particular destroyer is defined in the editor.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

It's actually implemented in scenario data. The code was tweaked to handle it, but split tube data is only implemented in BabesLite, BigBabes, or other mods that use the system.


Does the split tube code tweak apply to surface ships as well? Can you split a destroyer's torpedo tube "line" in the editor so that it works the same way as the split tube data for submarines? For example, if a destroyer has a mount with "21in Mk 15 Torpedo x 8," is there anything to be gained by splitting the mount into two lines in the editor (i.e., "21in Mk 15 Torpedo x 4" and "21in Mk 15 Torpedo x 4")?




Don Bowen -> RE: Allied SS torpedo expenditure (9/6/2010 4:59:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: henry1611

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

Subs (in fact any ship) can never shoot less than one "line" as defined in the editor.


Presumably then, a destroyer can only shoot a single "line" if that is how the torpedo data for that particular destroyer is defined in the editor.



True. For everything, each line is a firing size. If you hve two twin mounts forward and define them as 4 (2), the minimum fire is 4. The minimum damage would be 2. You could define each mount individually but you'd quickly run out of device lines for larger ships (or smaller ones with extensive AA configurations).


quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

It's actually implemented in scenario data. The code was tweaked to handle it, but split tube data is only implemented in BabesLite, BigBabes, or other mods that use the system.


Does the split tube code tweak apply to surface ships as well? Can you split a destroyer's torpedo tube "line" in the editor so that it works the same way as the split tube data for submarines? For example, if a destroyer has a mount with "21in Mk 15 Torpedo x 8," is there anything to be gained by splitting the mount into two lines in the editor (i.e., "21in Mk 15 Torpedo x 4" and "21in Mk 15 Torpedo x 4")?

Yes and No. Each "fire" would be a single line but the chances of all torpedoes being launched at a target would be reduced. Unlike subs, surface ships tend to have single, violent confrontations and want maximum firepower. The code to select a specific number of torpedoes to launch at a given target is unique to subs - where the skipper has more time to set up the attack and a desire to retain torpedoes to continue patrol.




henry1611 -> RE: Allied SS torpedo expenditure (9/6/2010 5:21:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
Yes and No. Each "fire" would be a single line but the chances of all torpedoes being launched at a target would be reduced. Unlike subs, surface ships tend to have single, violent confrontations and want maximum firepower. The code to select a specific number of torpedoes to launch at a given target is unique to subs - where the skipper has more time to set up the attack and a desire to retain torpedoes to continue patrol.


Thanks for the explanation Don. Somewhat related, if a destroyer encounters an enemy task force of several ships and shoots its line of torpedoes, is the entire line aimed at one of the enemy ships or is the line fired as a "spread" into the entire enemy task force with a chance of the torpedoes hitting more than one ship?




Sredni -> RE: Allied SS torpedo expenditure (9/6/2010 5:52:46 PM)

Ug, imagine being some hot submarine captain. You're skilled and experienced, you have nerves of steel and line up perfect shots and take heroic risks. You've faced death repeatedly and required men under your command to take those risks with you. You rationed your torpedoes carefully and were meticulous about getting the most bang for your torpedo buck, you achieved a well deserved high "hit" rate due to your skill, training, and diligence, only to see 90% of your hits do nothing as the torpedoes fail to detonate.

Then after a harrowing tour you get back to port and the jackass of a commander who gave you those pieces of **** torpedoes chews you out for wasting them.

I think you'd be about ready to start shooting superior officers out of those tubes.




JWE -> RE: Allied SS torpedo expenditure (9/6/2010 7:04:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: henry1611
Thanks for the explanation Don. Somewhat related, if a destroyer encounters an enemy task force of several ships and shoots its line of torpedoes, is the entire line aimed at one of the enemy ships or is the line fired as a "spread" into the entire enemy task force with a chance of the torpedoes hitting more than one ship?

Nope, they don’t shoot “spreads”. In Surface Combat, a “ship” fires a “weapon” (a ‘line’ if you will) at a “target”.

However, as Don mentioned, there is a chance that not all torps get “fired”, in one specific impulse, so there is a chance that the remaining torps can be “fired” at some other “target”, in a next impulse. And then there is a chance of reload (if available), with a couple more chances of engaging a couple more different “targets”, during subsequent impulses.

But, for each impulse in the SurfCom phase, it is basically, a ship “fires” one “weapon” (line) at one “target”.

Watching a SurfCom play-by-play will give you a good idea about how this works in practice.




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