Damaged Carrier in port - can't unload air group (Full Version)

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spence -> Damaged Carrier in port - can't unload air group (8/19/2010 9:34:33 PM)

Enterprise was damaged by a submarine with 15 sys, 42 flot and 15 eng (or thereabouts). Following her damage she limped into Sydney where repairs were begun. None of the air group can get off the ship except by Withdrawing or Disbanding.

This makes no sense. Or perhaps there is some section (i)(2)(a)(III)(B) to Appendix Y-123 to Addendum 476 that tells how to get the planes and pilots off the boat. I would have thought the gangway would work for the pilots at least.




anarchyintheuk -> RE: Damaged Carrier in port - can't unload air group (8/19/2010 9:43:46 PM)

Float + eng (or is it sys) has to be < 50 i think for transfer of ac.




spence -> RE: Damaged Carrier in port - can't unload air group (8/19/2010 9:47:45 PM)

The pilots can walk down the gangway! The planes can be lifted off with cranes. I know about the sys + flot rule but it should not apply in port, especially a big port.

And I am quite certain that this is a change from vanilla WitP where I was able to remove the planes and pilots from severely damaged carriers in port(the same port in fact).




topeverest -> RE: Damaged Carrier in port - can't unload air group (8/19/2010 10:23:21 PM)

Not aware of any issues with this type of port unload unless sys damage over 50 or on fire. Am I incorrect?




Djordje -> RE: Damaged Carrier in port - can't unload air group (8/19/2010 10:28:36 PM)

Wait till it sinks in port and all the pilots die with it... [:)]




anarchyintheuk -> RE: Damaged Carrier in port - can't unload air group (8/19/2010 10:46:23 PM)

This is the way I rationalize it. The planes are stuck in the hangar and can't be accessed due to elevator damage. The pilots are too attached to their planes to leave.




[image]local://upfiles/11924/C605146726234D8593EA015B7ED2E2F9.jpg[/image]




spence -> RE: Damaged Carrier in port - can't unload air group (8/19/2010 11:01:04 PM)

quote:

Wait till it sinks in port and all the pilots die with it...



Yeah I can hardly wait.


quote:

The planes are stuck in the hangar and can't be accessed due to elevator damage.


Were it an IJN carrier the argument would make just the slightest sense since their hangar decks were completely enclosed by shops, etc. And, there would also have been an administrative reason since the pilots were part of the ship's company.

But the hangar deck on a US carrier was accessible by very large (airplane sized) openings to the outside on the same deck so the argument above does not hold water. If there was a need to use the planes and pilots elsewhere there would have been no physical obstacle to removing them from the ship in port. Nor were the pilots part of the ship's company. Administratively the squadrons were "designed" to be attached to and detached from the ship at the whim of the Fleet Commander.




Djordje -> RE: Damaged Carrier in port - can't unload air group (8/19/2010 11:12:45 PM)

Japanese or not I see absolutely no reason why pilots would be on ship in port that is in danger of sinking. Even in the most desperate kamikaze days Japanese still took care of their experienced and well trained pilots.




Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Damaged Carrier in port - can't unload air group (8/19/2010 11:21:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

The pilots can walk down the gangway!


Just to be clear, you can't swap the present pilots for nuggets from the pool? The "Pilots" hot point is locked out?

I've never tried to do anytihing with damaged carriers in port, so I don't know. If this is the case it does seem like an odd design decision.




spence -> RE: Damaged Carrier in port - can't unload air group (8/20/2010 12:36:48 AM)

quote:

Just to be clear, you can't swap the present pilots for nuggets from the pool? The "Pilots" hot point is locked out?


I didn't try that before but it would work. I tried it to make sure.

Seems a bit tedious to do it that way. 100 odd pilots in the 4 squadrons.

A gentle "get off my ship" from the CO to the squadron commanders and a seaman apprentice to show them (the pilots) where the gangway is would be the RL solution.

The design decision (if that what it was) has no contact with the real world or logical justification IMHO.




SuluSea -> RE: Damaged Carrier in port - can't unload air group (8/20/2010 1:18:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence


But the hangar deck on a US carrier was accessible by very large (airplane sized) openings to the outside on the same deck so the argument above does not hold water. If there was a need to use the planes and pilots elsewhere there would have been no physical obstacle to removing them from the ship in port. Nor were the pilots part of the ship's company. Administratively the squadrons were "designed" to be attached to and detached from the ship at the whim of the Fleet Commander.


Very good point ........... but sometimes in life whether it be sports or gaming you have to take your medicine in this case the responsibilty for carrier damage lies at the feet of the commander, 5 minutes to get out all quality pilots is really not that big a deal, all things considered.




Joe D. -> RE: Damaged Carrier in port - can't unload air group (8/20/2010 1:27:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

Enterprise was damaged by a submarine with 15 sys, 42 flot and 15 eng (or thereabouts). Following her damage she limped into Sydney where repairs were begun. None of the air group can get off the ship except by Withdrawing or Disbanding ...


The CV's AG can be transferred once damage levels are lowered.




xj900uk -> RE: Damaged Carrier in port - can't unload air group (8/20/2010 12:34:30 PM)

Perhaps the pilots and aircrews have been commandeered into helping put the fires out? You know, like, forming a bucket chain?




bjmorgan -> RE: Damaged Carrier in port - can't unload air group (8/20/2010 1:35:12 PM)

Well the "pilot" thing is a bit odd. I just flew a single F4F (all that remained of a sqdn) from Wake to the Enterprise with 19 pilots apparently strapped under the wings like 250 lb bombs. Maybe one or two hung below on the tailhook. It's just one of those abstractions that probably works at the overall game level, but at the incident level it's kinda odd.




Nemo121 -> RE: Damaged Carrier in port - can't unload air group (8/20/2010 3:25:13 PM)

I can beat that. I recently flew an isolated F4F-3 back to the base the rest of its squadron was at. That isn't so weird except that there was no pilot at all with the isolated F4F-3. As has been said it is a slight abstraction which works on the game level but can cause some "interesting" issues at the incident level.




Nikademus -> RE: Damaged Carrier in port - can't unload air group (8/20/2010 3:47:21 PM)

The aircraft transfer buttons assume the planes fly off the deck (or land on the deck if transfering too the carrier)

If the carrier in question can't do air ops you can't use those features.




xj900uk -> RE: Damaged Carrier in port - can't unload air group (8/20/2010 4:49:59 PM)

quote:

I can beat that. I recently flew an isolated F4F-3 back to the base the rest of its squadron was at. That isn't so weird except that there was no pilot at all with the isolated F4F-3.


Or maybe it was a ferry pilot? In the early part of WWII the Royal Auxilary Air Force (which often comprised of female pilots) would often fly replacement/patched up planes from the CRO depots back out to frontline squadrons and airbases in the British Isles. Usually the planes were unarmed and unradioed so it required good navigation...




Czert -> RE: Damaged Carrier in port - can't unload air group (8/20/2010 5:29:25 PM)

Transfering of planes to base via simple flying off from deck make sense, and explain why game mechanic dont allow it.
So, logical thing (and game mechanic wise) it will to add buton (and code :) - disembark/move (call it whatever you want it) planes from CV to base (via cranes). Avaivable only in lvl 5 port+.




War History -> RE: Damaged Carrier in port - can't unload air group (8/20/2010 6:01:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

The aircraft transfer buttons assume the planes fly off the deck (or land on the deck if transfering too the carrier)

If the carrier in question can't do air ops you can't use those features.


Interesting. You realize that it is a change to the game. Used to be able to do this in both UV and WitP, in fact you didnt even need to be disbanded, just docked. I can see preventing it if there is a fire, but just from damage? No. So I for one would love to hear the logic behind this unhistorical addition to the game. And correct me if I am wrong, but I believe I read that if a ship is disbanded and you move planes from the ship to the airbase in the same hex, then all aircraft are damaged. Why is this so if they are flying off the deck as you say? To quote Tora, Tora, Tora: "It's double-talk".




Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Damaged Carrier in port - can't unload air group (8/20/2010 6:20:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan

Well the "pilot" thing is a bit odd. I just flew a single F4F (all that remained of a sqdn) from Wake to the Enterprise with 19 pilots apparently strapped under the wings like 250 lb bombs. Maybe one or two hung below on the tailhook. It's just one of those abstractions that probably works at the overall game level, but at the incident level it's kinda odd.



Well, yeah. Imagine how much harder (tedious) the game would be if replacement aircraft had to be hauled across the pond and physically unloaded, instead of poofed into the middle of Burma with a click.

I'll take abstraction for a hundred, Alex.




Nikademus -> RE: Damaged Carrier in port - can't unload air group (8/20/2010 6:30:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


Well, yeah. Imagine how much harder (tedious) the game would be if replacement aircraft had to be hauled across the pond and physically unloaded, instead of poofed into the middle of Burma with a click.

I'll take abstraction for a hundred, Alex.


It was contemplated. [:D] We settled for a restriction on how many replacements in a 7 day period along with the nominal min. supply requirement. It would certainly have forced more realistic pacing. [:D]




Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Damaged Carrier in port - can't unload air group (8/20/2010 6:35:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


Well, yeah. Imagine how much harder (tedious) the game would be if replacement aircraft had to be hauled across the pond and physically unloaded, instead of poofed into the middle of Burma with a click.

I'll take abstraction for a hundred, Alex.


It was contemplated. [:D] We settled for a restriction on how many replacements in a 7 day period along with the nominal min. supply requirement. It would certainly have forced more realistic pacing. [:D]


Hey, if you want realistic pacing, just model repair parts. As a former supply officer I happen to know we could stop any war in its tracks in a week. Or less. Sometimes on purpose. Sometimes just because we feel . . . meh.[;)]




Sredni -> RE: Damaged Carrier in port - can't unload air group (8/20/2010 6:48:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

The aircraft transfer buttons assume the planes fly off the deck (or land on the deck if transfering too the carrier)

If the carrier in question can't do air ops you can't use those features.


But if your carrier is docked and you transfer they end up in the base disassembled. I think I read somewhere that if you transfer them while docked it's assumed that they're moved via crane. It'd be a nice change I think if we could transfer airgroups off heavily damaged CV's while they're docked and have them moved via crane like they are now with an undamaged docked CV.




Nikademus -> RE: Damaged Carrier in port - can't unload air group (8/20/2010 7:09:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


Hey, if you want realistic pacing, just model repair parts. As a former supply officer I happen to know we could stop any war in its tracks in a week. Or less. Sometimes on purpose. Sometimes just because we feel . . . meh.[;)]


naw....i came up with a better solution.

[;)]




michaelm -> RE: Damaged Carrier in port - can't unload air group (8/21/2010 1:42:58 AM)

Groups on damaged ships in a docked TF can transfer (by crane).

However, I used the wrong array when checking ships disbanded in port for the same movement. Behavior should be the same, but isn't.

Will be fixed in the next CODE patch (no time frame at this time).

For now, I think you will need to do the transfers before disbanding the TF. Or maybe forming a TF with the damaged CV and then doing the transfer.




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