No bridge, big problem? (Full Version)

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xe5 -> No bridge, big problem? (7/31/2010 11:14:28 AM)

Doesnt look like lack of a major or minor bridge slows the Allied advance.

Turn 1 - Allied armor BG attacks Arnhem RR Bridge map. Allied infantry BG supports. Allies can only deploy south of the RR bridge. Axis static BG blows the bridge, Allies get full control of map.

Turn 2 - Allied armor and infantry BGs move across a major river to S. Oosterbeek and West Arnhem. Allied follow-on BGs move into Arnhem RR Bridge area.

Turn 3 - Allied follow-on BGs move across the river.

[image]local://upfiles/31774/17DFCFC58D924EFB97F0E50CDAD6B9B5.jpg[/image]

Blown minor bridges look to have the same problem.

[image]http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/upfiles/31774/B62426FEE56543918210620DD9B30AC0.jpg[/image]





xe5 -> RE: No bridge, big problem? (7/31/2010 12:40:10 PM)

Only an issue in custom operations? My stock campaign doesnt seem to have these problems. BGs are confined to the 'right' side of the river when bridges are blown.




RD_Oddball -> RE: No bridge, big problem? (7/31/2010 3:27:53 PM)

I just looked at the BTD to be sure the location of the exit/entry VL's are correct and they appear to be. There shouldn't be a reason why custom campaigns would be acting this way unless some changes were made to the campaign.txt. Were there any? I'll see if Steve can help shed any light on this. At first blush, I agree with you it looks like a bug. Armored BG's are not supposed to be able to improvise crossings.




xe5 -> RE: No bridge, big problem? (7/31/2010 9:25:26 PM)

The "improvised crossing" at Arnhem RR Bridge can be reproduced in the release version using an op from the editor. Looks like blown bridges dont restrict strat movement in custom ops/camps.




7A_Woulf -> RE: No bridge, big problem? (7/31/2010 9:54:08 PM)

While talking of bridges and movement...

-The strat movement is depending of exit VL's, but does the control of bridges limit movement as well? As in Arnhem for an example; If the Germans controls the southern VL's and moves in a BG from the north while the Paras controls the bridge, can that BG move away to the south in the following turn or does the control of the bridge limit those movements as well?

Know it might be hard to implement, but it would be a nice feature. [8D]




xe5 -> RE: No bridge, big problem? (8/1/2010 4:58:46 AM)

@7A - in the situation you describe, the Axis BG can move away to the south in the following turn. In effect it jumps over the paras holding the bridge.




RD_Oddball -> RE: No bridge, big problem? (8/1/2010 5:36:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: xe5

The "improvised crossing" at Arnhem RR Bridge can be reproduced in the release version using an op from the editor. Looks like blown bridges dont restrict strat movement in custom ops/camps.


Okay. That's how I'll report it then. Thanks.




Steve McClaire -> RE: No bridge, big problem? (8/5/2010 11:55:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xe5
The "improvised crossing" at Arnhem RR Bridge can be reproduced in the release version using an op from the editor. Looks like blown bridges dont restrict strat movement in custom ops/camps.


If you're not seeing this in a custom op, it may be due to the way your op is set up and where the BGs are entering the bridge map from. You can shift+click the map diamond in the scenario editor to see / set the initial entry VLs for BGs.

Steve




xe5 -> RE: No bridge, big problem? (8/6/2010 12:44:57 AM)

Both sets of images clearly show follow-on Allied BGs crossing through a strategic area with a blown bridge from the south side of the waterways to the north.




Steve McClaire -> RE: No bridge, big problem? (8/6/2010 3:22:14 AM)

Sorry, I wasn't blowing off your info -- Oddball has logged it as a bug and it will be looked at for patch #2.  I was just offering a suggestion on something you could try given that I haven't investigated it yet.




xe5 -> RE: No bridge, big problem? (8/6/2010 9:09:31 AM)

The Allied BGs that caused the Axis to detonate were started on the south side of the waterways in the major/minor examples above. Not an issue in the GC. Havent tested it yet in stock ops.

The pics of Best show an associated bug where BGs owning blown bridge maps cant use either of the "double exit VLs" (eg. 'to Son North' & 'to Son South') to move.




xe5 -> RE: No bridge, big problem? (8/7/2010 1:27:41 PM)

The following illustrations are from a stock H2H Grand Campaign with both sides (laptop vs desktop) using the 5.60.00 release version. The legend below applies to all the illustrations:

[image]local://upfiles/31774/354F6D596B9E44C392DC6C9063B6F964.jpg[/image]




xe5 -> RE: No bridge, big problem? (8/7/2010 1:33:59 PM)

The bridge at Best is blown on turn 1 (9/17 @ 1500).

The AB BG is able to move to Eindhoven but shouldnt be. It arrived on Best from Son Heath and should be blocked from crossing the blown Best bridge to Eindhoven.

The AB BG isnt able to move to Son but should because there are exit VLs to Son on both sides of the bridge.

[image]local://upfiles/31774/1F036581D09A4FE588DF64C6038D6DF0.jpg[/image]




xe5 -> RE: No bridge, big problem? (8/7/2010 1:41:06 PM)

The bridge on Son is blown on turn 1.

The AB BG on Son is able to move to Eindhoven but shouldnt. It arrived from Son Heath and the blown bridge should prevent it from crossing the waterway to Eindhoven.

The AB BG cant move to Nederwetten for the reason it shouldnt move to Eindhoven - the exit VL is on the other side of the blown bridge from where the BG arrived.

The AB BG should be able to move to Best because there are exit VLs on both sides of the bridge.

[image]local://upfiles/31774/6C8CEE75AA544898830441155BD80EC6.jpg[/image]




RD_Oddball -> RE: No bridge, big problem? (8/7/2010 1:42:31 PM)

Thanks Mick. Additional info logged with the bug.




xe5 -> RE: No bridge, big problem? (8/7/2010 1:47:47 PM)

The bridge at St Oedenrode was blown on turn 1. 2 AB BGs had moved onto the map from different sides of the bridge.

On turn 2, the AB BG that moved to St O. from the north side of the bridge (from Veghel) is correctly prevented from moving to any map south of the bridge. That BG can only move back to Veghel.

[image]local://upfiles/31774/3504FDD8FF1E4C588DCCDE4E8318CCEA.jpg[/image]




xe5 -> RE: No bridge, big problem? (8/7/2010 1:53:48 PM)

The AB BG that attacked St O. from the south side of the bridge (Son Heath) is correctly prevented from moving north of the blown bridge to Veghel.

It appears that the blown bridge function is working properly on St Oedenrode. The only way to be sure would be to test moving to St O. from Schijndel, Geelders and Son also.

[image]local://upfiles/31774/7FC15A0C17604399B79EF04A80B24D25.jpg[/image]




xe5 -> RE: No bridge, big problem? (8/7/2010 2:00:35 PM)

The bridge at Veghel was blown on turn 1.

On turn 2, the AB BG that had arrived from Dinther should not be able to move south to Schijndel or St Oedenrode because those exit VLs are on the other side of the blown bridge.

The AB BG at Veghel can, and should, be able to move to Uden and Gemert because those exit VLs are on the same side of the bridge as the map that BG arrived from.

[image]local://upfiles/31774/19A100E8737D4415BADE8CB6C5661CDB.jpg[/image]




xe5 -> RE: No bridge, big problem? (8/7/2010 2:10:03 PM)

The bridge at Grave was blown on turn 1.

On turn 2, the AB BG that started turn 1 at DZ E south of the bridge on Grave is correctly prevented from moving north of the blown bridge to Overasselt or Teersdijk.

The AB BG at Grave is properly allowed to move south to Oss or Uden because those exit VLs are on the same side of the blown bridge as where the BG started from.

The blown bridge function at Grave seems to be working right. Again, we can only be certain with additional testing by moving to Grave from different directions.

[image]local://upfiles/31774/C5A5702945C143A6AE58DF793B8AD79D.jpg[/image]




xe5 -> RE: No bridge, big problem? (8/7/2010 2:15:22 PM)

The bridge at Heumen was blown on turn 1.

On turn 2, the AB BG cant, and shouldnt be able to, move south to Overasselt because that exit VL is on the other side of the blown bridge from where it arrived.

The AB BG is correctly allowed to move to Blankenberg Bridge, Driehuizen, Groesbeek Heights South or back to Mook.

The blown bridge function at Heumen seems to be working right (caveats apply).

[image]local://upfiles/31774/BB85036EAC8C4D7C8F795BBFB55CCE21.jpg[/image]




xe5 -> RE: No bridge, big problem? (8/7/2010 2:17:57 PM)

The bridge at Hatert was blown on turn 1. The bridge function seems to be working (ditto caveats).

[image]local://upfiles/31774/B9A8D1C375C844369433F0620B799F74.jpg[/image]




xe5 -> RE: No bridge, big problem? (8/7/2010 2:20:55 PM)

The bridge at Ravenstein was blown on turn 3. The blown bridge function seems to be working right.

[image]local://upfiles/31774/E867AAE7BF0544D78D2F62104A4616FF.jpg[/image]




xe5 -> RE: No bridge, big problem? (8/7/2010 2:25:19 PM)

Nijmegen Bridge was blown on turn 3.

On turn 4, the AB BG can, but shouldnt be able to, move across the blown bridge to Waal, Oosterhout and Bemmel. Those exit VLs are on the other side of the bridge than where the BG arrived.

The AB BG cant, but should be able to, move to Nijmegen and Weurt because those exit VLs are on the same side of the bridge as where it arrived.

[image]local://upfiles/31774/20B7D8F36AE24DD0A1B6A8815897F1C6.jpg[/image]




xe5 -> RE: No bridge, big problem? (8/7/2010 2:30:36 PM)

Arnhem RR Bridge was blown on turn 1.

On turn 2, the Brit BG that arrived from South Oosterbeek can, but shouldnt be able to, move across the blown bridge to Driel North, Driel and Elden because the exit VLs yada yada...

[image]local://upfiles/31774/5695255F62A4493493357F7935285B15.jpg[/image]




xe5 -> RE: No bridge, big problem? (8/7/2010 2:35:44 PM)

On turn 4 the Arnhem Road bridge was blwn.

On turn 5, the Brit BGs that arrived from areas to the north, are correctly prevented from crossing the blown bridge south to Elden.

The blown bridge function at Arnhem Road seems to be working right*

[image]local://upfiles/31774/635C2F2FA809497A82D25DB995A77C13.jpg[/image]




xe5 -> RE: No bridge, big problem? (8/7/2010 2:46:49 PM)

The following pertain to KG Rink and the blown bridge at Best...

On turn 1 the bridge at Best is blown. On turn 2 the AB BG moves from Best to Geelders.

On turn 3 KG Rink arrives on US-controlled Best as a reinforcement BG from off-map ("from Tilburg"). Rink cant, but should be able to move to Geelders and Son Heath. Unlike the US AB at Best on turn 2, Rink can, and should be able to, move to Son. Rink cant, and shouldnt be able to, move across the blown bridge to Eindhoven.

[image]local://upfiles/31774/E82E5995412840F39B6F66FEC29843B5.jpg[/image]




xe5 -> RE: No bridge, big problem? (8/7/2010 2:53:05 PM)

On a different trial at Best...bridge blown turn 1. AB BG stays on Best turns 2 & 3. KG Rink reinforces from off-map on turn 3. Battle ensues. KG Rink captures the 'to Geelders' VL. On turn 4 Rink cant, but should be able to, move to Geelders because the BG controls that exit VL.



[image]local://upfiles/31774/6502AC56FB0C4124B75FDE113B3BC7CD.jpg[/image]




7A_Woulf -> RE: No bridge, big problem? (8/7/2010 2:56:31 PM)

Credits to you xe5 for testing all this out! [:)]




xe5 -> RE: No bridge, big problem? (8/7/2010 3:03:45 PM)

Not to flog a deceased Clydesdale here, but if blown bridges have the wrong, or no effect, then LSA isnt simulating Market-Garden.




xe5 -> RE: No bridge, big problem? (8/7/2010 3:21:03 PM)

Here's an oddity...if the AB BG moves 'upstream' using the 'double' exit VLs from Heumen Bridge to Blankenberg Bridge, the Allied player is rewarded with a deployment zone, on both sides of the waterway, that puts the bridge VL in neutral territory, thus automatically "un-priming" Blankenberg bridge. And since the friendly deploy area includes being on the bridge, controlling the bridge VL against the Blankenberg static BG is practically a gimme.

[image]local://upfiles/31774/E03479730D1444F887D0DA864003DC4E.jpg[/image]




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