1.0.4.4 I like the new economy (Full Version)

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taltamir -> 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy (4/30/2010 4:58:57 PM)

I like the new economy. It works well...
While ideas like corruption sound scary and as if they will cripple larger empires, they don't. A larger empire is still richer, there seem to be the right amount of diminishing returns; not too much, and not too little.

And you can still become filthy rich at the end.




EisenHammer -> RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy (4/30/2010 5:15:05 PM)

I'm finding the economy as being a little to easy right now. 




jscott991 -> RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy (4/30/2010 5:31:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer

I'm finding the economy as being a little to easy right now. 


This convinces me that a difficulty slider is the only choice they are going to have.

I'm just not sure what people found fun about the incredibly tight early game economy in b1 and b2.




Spacecadet -> RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy (4/30/2010 5:51:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jscott991


quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer

I'm finding the economy as being a little to easy right now. 


This convinces me that a difficulty slider is the only choice they are going to have.

I'm just not sure what people found fun about the incredibly tight early game economy in b1 and b2.


Yeah, a slider setting is probably the only thing that is going to satisfy everyone.

Too me, the Economy is a bit tighter than I really like, but it's doable.

Also, maybe it's just me, but I think construction times have been increased in this build (vs. 1.03) as well. It really seems to be taking quite a bit of time to get things built.

Research on the low setting is really a crawl. This is okay I guess, but the real problem with Research is that the Tech Tree is just too shallow.










TheSAguy -> RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy (4/30/2010 5:53:12 PM)

And there is nothing wrong with a Difficulty Slider.
Everyone has their own playing preference.... and getting one setting to suite everyone is not realistic...







ASHBERY76 -> RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy (4/30/2010 7:34:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer

I'm finding the economy as being a little to easy right now. 


So it is still a bloated economy? I temporarily shelved the game after playing 1.3 because of this reason.It was like playing EU3 with a money cheat.It killed the gameplay.




Munchies -> RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy (4/30/2010 8:51:20 PM)

lol if you used a money cheat in EU3, then you killed the gameplay not the cheat ;)

a difficulty slider would be best I agree.

But as far as going the speed of light (so to speak) right out of the gate is a little ridiculous. It takes time to start up a civilization. You shouldn't be able to afford 20 colonies and fleets and all the bells and whistles right from the start.
It is like you start your ball rolling down hill at full speed. You need that little push to get it going first.

If you start with 50k credits and spend it all on colony ships without thinking of improving your already set-up economy, then that is your fault. Yeah, you should be in the red until you can generate enough credits to start building more stations and etc so you can trade more and tax more for income.

I agree though, it needs tweaking. Either the AI needs to speed things up and prioritize colonizing, or things need to slow down at the start.

Bah, it is difficult to get my point across.. I am too old and my brain don't work like it used too lol




Das123 -> RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy (4/30/2010 9:00:29 PM)

Yes, it seems 1.0.4.4 is a touch too easy but it is way better than the difficulty of 1.0.4.1 and 1.0.4.2.

Difficulty slider would be cool - especially if it could be shifted in the options rather than just in the pre-game setup.




Kamonrius -> RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy (4/30/2010 9:06:38 PM)

well DW's story is that your just the descendant's of a great civilizaiton so you still have Jumpspace tech just not a galactic community. a clean slate so to speak




DarkWraith -> RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy (4/30/2010 9:39:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer

I'm finding the economy as being a little to easy right now. 


Thank god! I was beginning to feel so alone.

An economic difficulty slider would be great, but it really should be two sliders so that we can let the enemy empires have the ridiculously easy economies while we give ourselves something more difficult.




Interesting -> RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy (4/30/2010 10:27:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer

I'm finding the economy as being a little to easy right now. 


So it is still a bloated economy? I temporarily shelved the game after playing 1.3 because of this reason.It was like playing EU3 with a money cheat.It killed the gameplay.


Same thing here.




Erik Rutins -> RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy (4/30/2010 10:51:56 PM)

It's much less bloated than 1.0.3, in my experience. 1.0.3 was a lot more bloated than anything we had seen before in DW, to be honest. The post-release economic issues and the balance issues that resulted from fixing them were not exactly part of our original plan. I think 1.0.4, by the time it becomes official, will have this sorted out. A slider for economic difficulty is I think the best long-terms solution as well, but 1.0.4 should give us a good default balance.




Hard Sarge -> RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy (4/30/2010 11:07:28 PM)

Hey Erik, looking good, was able (had to) run 1.04 on my Vista laptop, ended up getting a couple of freezes during the game, other then that, game looking very good, I was able to keep things going with my Ecc




JosEPh_II -> RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy (4/30/2010 11:13:27 PM)


I still don't understand this rationale that if I have a peacetime economy that I have to run in the RED to feel challenged!?? Maybe so on the Highest Difficulty levels but definitely NOT on normal and below.

I still can't build everything I want or even need on Normal settings without watching my bottomline. And this is how it should be!

When I go to War I DO NOT want to be hamstrung because I don't have the capital to build a Modern fleet and/or Defense Bases. But several of you seem to think this is How The Game Should Be. More Normal players will be discouraged By Not having a decent economy than the few of You Uber players who make good money on the highest levels.

Sorry if this is abrupt and abrasive to some of you but Gee Whiz back off a bit! Let the rest of us have a chance to form an opinion and not be railroaded into making the economy Too Hard Again! [:@]

JosEPh [:-]




Titanwarrior89 -> RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy (4/30/2010 11:37:42 PM)

Josepeh I agree with you I like the changes I don't want to go back to the hard economy.... The game is more enjoyable now. So there is some of us who don't want the Harvard econ. I don't want very easy but I would rather have it closer to easy than the way it was before 104.4
quote:

ORIGINAL: JosEPh_II


I still don't understand this rationale that if I have a peacetime economy that I have to run in the RED to feel challenged!?? Maybe so on the Highest Difficulty levels but definitely NOT on normal and below.

I still can't build everything I want or even need on Normal settings without watching my bottomline. And this is how it should be!

When I go to War I DO NOT want to be hamstrung because I don't have the capital to build a Modern fleet and/or Defense Bases. But several of you seem to think this is How The Game Should Be. More Normal players will be discouraged By Not having a decent economy than the few of You Uber players who make good money on the highest levels.

Sorry if this is abrupt and abrasive to some of you but Gee Whiz back off a bit! Let the rest of us have a chance to form an opinion and not be railroaded into making the economy Too Hard Again! [:@]

JosEPh [:-]






jscott991 -> RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy (4/30/2010 11:57:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

It's much less bloated than 1.0.3, in my experience. 1.0.3 was a lot more bloated than anything we had seen before in DW, to be honest. The post-release economic issues and the balance issues that resulted from fixing them were not exactly part of our original plan. I think 1.0.4, by the time it becomes official, will have this sorted out. A slider for economic difficulty is I think the best long-terms solution as well, but 1.0.4 should give us a good default balance.


Don't shift the economy back towards b1 or b2, please.




Flash Jack -> RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy (5/1/2010 12:23:34 AM)

Goodaye,

Personally I find the economy too easy but Eric and Elliot have to find a happy medium for everybody.

A difficulty slider is the way to go and I think that this might have to be implemented sooner rather than later 'cause once people get a bit of experience with the game they'll be looking for more of a challenge otherwise the game gets shelved 'cause they're bored.

For those like myself who find it too easy, particularly in the early game, I've found a work around.

When you start a new game, immediately fire up the editor and remove every second or third resource in your home system. Try and create a situation where you have none of a handful of strategic resources. Remove ALL luxury resources.

This really puts you under the gun. You start with a stockpile of resources enough to keep going for a short while but it's not enough to keep you going forever. Makes for a very tense, tough early game where you are having to think long and hard over what you do.

I find this machoistic approach more fun than having a boring, cruise through to the middle game experience. But that's just me.

Cheers,
Lancer




alexalexuk -> RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy (5/1/2010 12:30:02 AM)

im finding no problem spamming out around 15 exploration ships, then around 10 colony ships a the start of the game, i then wait for the first colony to start producing taxes on % (might be eariler if i colonized a indi world) - then i continue to spam colony ships.

nothings stopping me, income always in the black, the economy is a little easy right now, and requires little thought.






Davor -> RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy (5/1/2010 1:39:19 AM)

I don't know if it's the new beta patch or the what I did what somebody said before. When ever I make a new colony about 10 minutes later I would raise the taxes before. Now I leave all taxes at 0 on new colonies so they can build the population faster, and I am seeing that I can getting more money now. Once the colony is at MAX, then I increase the taxes for that colony since it can't grow anymore. Then again, I don't have many military ships eithers so not shure what is exactly working.




Fishman -> RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy (5/1/2010 1:55:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: alexalexuk

nothings stopping me, income always in the black, the economy is a little easy right now, and requires little thought.
Income SHOULD always be in the black. Any time you find yourself in negative income, you are DOOMED. The ability to actually increase your income by any immediate action in DW is basically nonexistent: Anything you do that will increase your income will not actually have an effect for a very long time. If you go into red income, and your cash reserves run out, the game is over: Without income, you can't build anything to fix this in the future, so the situation will just continue to go downhill and you will continue to be unable to do anything. Black income isn't just a luxury item, it's MANDATORY: Red income = DEATH.




Erik Rutins -> RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy (5/1/2010 3:00:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman
Income SHOULD always be in the black. Any time you find yourself in negative income, you are DOOMED. The ability to actually increase your income by any immediate action in DW is basically nonexistent: Anything you do that will increase your income will not actually have an effect for a very long time. If you go into red income, and your cash reserves run out, the game is over: Without income, you can't build anything to fix this in the future, so the situation will just continue to go downhill and you will continue to be unable to do anything. Black income isn't just a luxury item, it's MANDATORY: Red income = DEATH.


That's way too general a statement. You can absolutely recover from negative cash flow and negative cash, it depends entirely on why your cash or cash flow has gone into the negative.




DarkWraith -> RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy (5/1/2010 3:24:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

Income SHOULD always be in the black. Any time you find yourself in negative income, you are DOOMED. The ability to actually increase your income by any immediate action in DW is basically nonexistent: Anything you do that will increase your income will not actually have an effect for a very long time. If you go into red income, and your cash reserves run out, the game is over: Without income, you can't build anything to fix this in the future, so the situation will just continue to go downhill and you will continue to be unable to do anything. Black income isn't just a luxury item, it's MANDATORY: Red income = DEATH.


It really doesn't. In B2, it was my general strategy that'd I'd let myself go 10k into the red in income and worry about it later. I didn't even start scrapping ships to push back into the black, just lived with it for a year or so. Dealing with red incomes isn't difficult at all, and it needs to be at least possible to push your economy hard enough for it to give out - we had that in B2, and perhaps it was a bit too easy to do so, but you have to try hard to have economic problems now.




EisenHammer -> RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy (5/1/2010 4:24:03 AM)

I was able to get out of the red a few times, it's far from being DOOMED or DEATH.
But I have yet to see red with 1.04.4 




JosEPh_II -> RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy (5/1/2010 4:47:47 AM)


You know we've had ppl post screen shots of their economy. One of the most outlandish was one that had an 11Million balance. The poster went on to say how easy it was to make this "ridiculous" amount. But upon further questioning it came out that he was playing on the easiest of all levels!

If you all are so proficient at money making why don't you post How you do it? And at what levels of difficulty. Since game setup has many variables, maybe a closer look at what you set up and then your procedures is called for?  To educate the dumb masses of which I am one. The 1 game that I made it to the 1 million mark for budget balance was the one game were I felt I had really accomplished something. And that I had the Resources to actually make my victory goals.

Now if I can keep the budget out of the red and maintain a 20k-50k balance I feel I'm doing good. But when War comes that 20k-50K budget gets used up very quickly and then it's scramble time again and Most of the time it Does lead to defeat especially if you go red on both levels Erik. Try being at War with a Major AI, one who has twice the colonies you do, and then have your economy tank (red, red). If you can pull that one out then I'm in over my head on this game!

JosEPh




taltamir -> RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy (5/1/2010 6:55:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JosEPh_II

I still don't understand this rationale that if I have a peacetime economy that I have to run in the RED to feel challenged!?? Maybe so on the Highest Difficulty levels but definitely NOT on normal and below.

I still can't build everything I want or even need on Normal settings without watching my bottomline. And this is how it should be!

When I go to War I DO NOT want to be hamstrung because I don't have the capital to build a Modern fleet and/or Defense Bases. But several of you seem to think this is How The Game Should Be. More Normal players will be discouraged By Not having a decent economy than the few of You Uber players who make good money on the highest levels.

Sorry if this is abrupt and abrasive to some of you but Gee Whiz back off a bit! Let the rest of us have a chance to form an opinion and not be railroaded into making the economy Too Hard Again! [:@]

JosEPh [:-]



I agree with you... I have no idea why people want that, but apparently they do.
A difficulty slider should take care of that...
I agree with erik, we have a good default setting right now...

Erik, if you see that, I did notice that in a sandbox game where I was the only empire left I had 1 gas mining stations only resulting in ridiculous prices (50 for hydrogen). I manually built 30 gas mining stations... a little later they all disappeared. I am not sure if the econ AI scrapped them or if the pirates aggressively hunted them down, but i was at 27 sources of hydrogen at one point and now I am down to zero... also all my construction ships disappeared (I had 12, I retrofitted all of them to latest design, and they all disappeared a little later).




Flash Jack -> RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy (5/1/2010 6:57:21 AM)

Goodaye Eric,

I think that the economic difficulty badly needs a slider to cater for everybodies individual preferences.

I've tallied up the posts in this thread and there are six people (taltamir, jscott, spacecadet, joseph, titanwarrior, fishman) who like things as they are (beta 4).

There are eight people (eisenhammer, darkwraith, ashberry, munchies, das123, interesting, lancer, alexaexuk) who think it's too easy.

Another two expressed a need for a difficulty slider without coming down on either side.

So even in this small sample you've got a 6 to 8 difference of opinion with the balance saying it's too easy.

I don't think that you can afford to let this issue simmer and stew.

Most people interested in 4X space games would have experience with at least one other example of the genre. I can't think of any that don't have difficulty settings. People are used to having that option.

Aiming for a default middle ground is like chasing mirages. The problem is that you are going to have a significant percentage of your user base thinking (and saying) that you've made the game too easy.

DW is a game that is largely marketed (from what I've gathered so far) by gamers word of mouth and posts on other forums. The last thing you want is people posting that the game has been 'dumbed down' or 'nerfed' to cater for the RTS crowd (not saying that's the case but whenever you have a lot of people saying the game is too easy then you leave yourself open for this kind of stuff).

Potential buyers are willing to give a game that errs on the side of challenging a go but having a reputation as an 'easy' game without the option for choosing your preference is a bad look. Word gets around and even if you instigate a patch with the aforementioned slider a couple of months down the track you've having to make up a lot of ground. You've probably ended up losing a bunch of sales in the initial launch period when the game is fresh and new.

The previous paragraph is me with my 'game business' hat on. It's a pretty raggedy *ssed hat so take it with a grain of salt.

I'd stress that I'm not advocating making the game harder to cater for my personal preference here. It's important to cater for both groups. I am putting a case forward that you implement a difficulty slider as a matter of priority.

Personally if I can't get a challenge out of a game then I lose interest in it pretty quick, no matter how good it is. I suspect that there are a lot of other 4X players with similiar views. I've found ways with DW (as posted above) how to maintain the challenge so I keep playing it an enjoying but others may not bother to go to the extremes that I have.

I think DW is a great game with a great future. But I can see that you are going to get hit pretty hard if you let this issue blow in the breeze for too long. There is nothing in this post that you probably don't know or are aware of but given that you've already summoned the 'difficulty monster' out of the depths and had him zig zag across perceptions, I don't think you can simply ask people to ignore him with reassurance that you'll slay him some time in the future.

Of course all this is a personal opinion and I've been known to be wrong. Numerous times.

Cheers,
Lancer




Das123 -> RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy (5/1/2010 8:05:44 AM)

I tried a few games with the Home System setting on 'Harsh' rather than 'Agreeable' and it makes a massive difference in terms of difficulty. Right from the start you have a negative balance and limited ships. Pirates are a real threat as you only start with a single Escort. I haven't played too deeply into any of these games but they are much more difficult.

With this in mind I think the economy in 1.0.4.4 is pretty close to the mark as far as I'm concerned. [:)]




Fishman -> RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy (5/1/2010 11:08:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer

I was able to get out of the red a few times, it's far from being DOOMED or DEATH.

If you have CASH RESERVES, you are fine. If the red occurs when you have NO cash reserves, you are SCREWED. Without money, you can't do anything, so at that point you are reduced to an impotent observer of a chain of events you are now powerless to affect.




taltamir -> RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy (5/1/2010 11:13:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer

I was able to get out of the red a few times, it's far from being DOOMED or DEATH.

If you have CASH RESERVES, you are fine. If the red occurs when you have NO cash reserves, you are SCREWED. Without money, you can't do anything, so at that point you are reduced to an impotent observer of a chain of events you are now powerless to affect.


that is one point, it also very much depends on WHAT made you get into the red... if it was the AI building too much PRIVATE stuff then there is NOTHING to do get out of it. If it was because your STATE expenses outstripped your income but the private sector is still growing (and you just colonized a ton of colonies who have much growth to do) then it will also come out of it by itself...

for example, I had a case where I went from 60 colonies to 300 colonies in under 5 minutes. (sold tech for several millions to AI, bought hundreds of colony ships with the money). The auto troop recruiting sent me to the red in the STATE (I 500k troop expense, 20k ships and bases expense, ~200k taxes income)...
however, the private sector was flourishing and eventually grew enough to support this state expense and then some.




Flash Jack -> RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy (5/1/2010 12:46:15 PM)

Goodaye,

quote:

I tried a few games with the Home System setting on 'Harsh' rather than 'Agreeable' and it makes a massive difference in terms of difficulty


I'd overlooked that setting. You're right. Harsh means HARSH. Really challenging.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Cheers,
Lancer




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