RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm (Full Version)

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Twotribes -> RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm (3/2/2010 11:28:21 AM)

There is NO way the US would send aircraft or pilots to Britain in any numbers. Roosevelt did NOT have the political capitol in 40 or even 41 to pull that off.




che200 -> RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm (3/2/2010 11:51:47 AM)

Lend-Lease was a critical factor in the eventual success of the Allies in World War II[citation needed], particularly in the early years when the United States was not directly involved and the entire burden of the fighting fell on other nations, notably those of the Commonwealth and, after June 1941, the Soviet Union. Although the attack on Pearl Harbor and the Axis Declarations of War brought the US into the war in December 1941, the task of recruiting, training, and equipping U.S. forces and transporting them to war zones could not be completed immediately. Through 1942, and to a lesser extent 1943, the other Allies continued to be responsible for most of the fighting and the supply of military equipment under Lend-Lease was a significant part of their success[citation needed]. In 1943-44, about a fourth of all British munitions came through Lend-Lease. Aircraft (in particular transport aircraft) comprised about one-fourth of the shipments to Britain, followed by food, land vehicles and ships[citation needed]. Even after the United States forces in Europe and the Pacific began to reach full-strength in 1943–1944, Lend-Lease continued. Most remaining allies were largely self-sufficient in front line equipment (such as tanks and fighter aircraft) by this stage, but Lend-Lease provided a useful supplement in this category even so, and Lend-Lease logistical supplies (including motor vehicles and railroad equipment) were of enormous assistance. Much of the aid can be better understood when considering the economic distortions caused by the war. Most belligerent powers cut back severely on production of nonessentials, concentrating on producing weapons. This inevitably produced shortages of related products needed by the military or as part of the military-industrial complex. The USSR was highly dependent on rail transportation, but during the war practically shut down rail equipment production: only about 92 locomotives were produced. 2,000 locomotives and 11,000 railcars were supplied under Lend-Lease. The USSR had a pre-war stock of over 25,000 locomotives and 600,000 railcars. The Lend-Lease stock did not start being shipped until 1944.[citation needed] Likewise, the Soviet air force received 18,700 aircraft, which amounted to about 14% of Soviet aircraft production (19% for military aircraft).[7] Although most Red Army tank units were equipped with Soviet-built tanks, their logistical support was provided by hundreds of thousands of U.S.-made trucks. Indeed by 1945 nearly two-thirds of the truck strength of the Red Army was U.S.-built. Trucks such as the Dodge 3/4 ton and Studebaker 2 1/2 ton, were easily the best trucks available in their class on either side on the Eastern Front.[8] U.S. supplies of telephone cable, aluminum, canned rations, and clothing were also critical. Lend Lease was a critical factor that brought the U.S. into the war, especially on the European front. Hitler cited the Lend-Lease program when he declared war on the U.S. on 11 December 1941.

Wikipedia not the best source but the fastest i could find.

On Tanknet I once saw a list of items supplied by LL to britain and USSR and the amount produced by each country, Without LL the war would have become a stalemate as Russia and britain could not take on Germany on their own they could stop them but not defeat them. Pls remember that by 1944 both USSR and Great Britain where having massive manpower shortrages to an extent that entire divisions where being Disbanded to keep others fighting.




LoBaron -> RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm (3/2/2010 11:52:01 AM)

I did not say US help in ´40 or ´41.

All that would happen is a retreat of the RAF further north where it was nearly impossible for the LW to
harm anything because of single engine fighter range.
The British already increased pilot training during the BoB and outproduced Germany in total number of
AC.

As I said, not much impact.




John Lansford -> RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm (3/2/2010 12:02:11 PM)

IIRC the US produced the vast majority of aviation fuel used in the ETO by both the USAAF and RAF.  Food was probably the most important resource shipped to England under Lend Lease; so many men and women were in the British armed forces there weren't enough to grow sufficient food for everyone.

As for the Soviets, the US shipped them tens of thousands of trucks, which allowed them to keep their offenses moving a lot further and longer than they would have without them.  Tanks and planes were nice, but neither was that necessary since the Soviets were more than capable of producing their own.  Radios and signalling gear were also very useful, but the rolling transport was by far the most useful we sent them.




mike scholl 1 -> RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm (3/2/2010 12:05:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

I never said they would invade. Nor was I talking about air frames. Britain was critically short on trained fighter pilots, no let up in attacking the fighter command and its fields would have caused a collapse of Fighter Command.




And Germany was running short of planes and pilots. Remember the Luftwaffe Generals statement that "He wouldn't know what to do with 300 fighters a month."? That's because the Luftwaffe wasn't training nearly enough Air Crew as well as not building enough aircraft. The Luftwaffe that supported the Russian Campaign was numerically smaller than the one that attacked France! And that's with 8 months of relative inactivity to build up between the end of the "Battle of Britian" and the beginning of "Barbarossa".




LoBaron -> RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm (3/2/2010 12:17:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

I never said they would invade. Nor was I talking about air frames. Britain was critically short on trained fighter pilots, no let up in attacking the fighter command and its fields would have caused a collapse of Fighter Command.




And Germany was running short of planes and pilots. Remember the Luftwaffe Generals statement that "He wouldn't know what to do with 300 fighters a month."? That's because the Luftwaffe wasn't training nearly enough Air Crew as well as not building enough aircraft. The Luftwaffe that supported the Russian Campaign was numerically smaller than the one that attacked France! And that's with 8 months of relative inactivity to build up between the end of the "Battle of Britian" and the beginning of "Barbarossa".




exactly [:)]


which brings us back to:

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron


quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Which do you think cost the Axis Powers the greatest strategic harm in World War II?

1) Japanese failure to equip fighters with self-sealing gas tanks and armor

2) German failure to equip heavy tanks with machine guns

3) German failure to have fighters with sufficient legs to escort bombers deeply into Britain



None of the above. Failure to adequately mobilize their industrial base to support a prolonged battle of attrition was by far the worst blunder. None of the Axis powers really tried to fully mobilize their economies until 1943---which is why their most productive year was 1944. There are many reasons for this, but all come back to the basic ignorance and prejudice of their military and national command authority.



This.

And if you want to go further:
Lacking the ressources in manpower, raw materials, technical educated society (thats more true for Japan though)
and modern mass production technologies to sustain such an industrial base...





Mark Weston -> RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm (3/2/2010 12:34:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

I never said they would invade. Nor was I talking about air frames. Britain was critically short on trained fighter pilots, no let up in attacking the fighter command and its fields would have caused a collapse of Fighter Command.

This would give Germany free rein to bomb manufacturing or cities with impunity. No Fighter Command and unrelenting bombing and even Churchill would be seeing a different outcome.


This was almost certainly not possible.

Dowding had built what was probably the world's first integrated air defence system, but the Luftwaffe didn't really understand how it worked. They were aware of the existence of radar and that RAF fighters were controlled by radio from the ground, but their assessment was that this was a rigid system which tied each squadron to its own airbase. If they had understood the system they might have been able to target the C3I infrastructure that allowed it to work, but that in turn would have required a lot of successful precision-bombing attacks that the Luftwaffe were no better at than anyone else in 1940.

The problem with the "carry on bombing the airfields" theory is that from the Luftwaffe's point of view, it simply wasn't working. With better intelligence from inside Britain they might have realised they were putting Fighter Command (or at least 11 Group) under some pressure. But on the basis of the strength of RAF resistance or of Luftwaffe losses the airfield bombing campaign was simply failing to achieve anything, The decision to change tactics was not unreasonable given the limited information they had.

What's more the Luftwaffe's best plausible scenario would not have given them air superiority. Suppose they had disabled the radar chains and disrupted or destroyed most of 11 Group's sector stations? They would not have destroyed the 11 Group squadrons, because both Dowding and Parks (11 Group commander) strongly believed in preserving their forces for the future and would not have kept committing fighters to a losing battle. Without early warning from radar or proper command and control from the sector stations Fighter Command might have been forced to withdraw north of the Thames. But it would not have been destroyed. In that position it would still be able to contest air superiority over all of the UK, would have had strong and intact reserves available in 10, 12 and 13 Groups, and its airfields and C3I would now be effectively unreachable to the Luftwaffe being out of range of Bf109 escort. IMO the very best the Luftwaffe could have hoped to achieve would have been a zone of air parity between the Thames and the Channel where both sides could operate but neither side had control.




spence -> RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm (3/2/2010 12:48:20 PM)

Strategically/operationally, a contrast between the Axis Powers.

In 1941 Germany basically "went all in" with Operation Barbarossa (although perhaps lacking a true appreciation of what it would take to win).

Strangely the Japanese didn't go "all in" in 1942 when they tried for their "Decisive Battle". They made no effort whatever to include Zuikaku in the KB: it was allowed to replace its aircraft/pilot losses from Coral Sea "at its leisure". They dispersed their fleet all over the ocean guarding against every contingency except the most obvious one (the one that happened). They incorporated a pathetically small and ill-equipped invasion force for the island that was the object of the operation.




JohnDillworth -> RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm (3/2/2010 2:34:18 PM)

quote:

Is there a Japanese "What if"? Or were they doomed from the start and anything they would have done could not have improved their chances?

Probably doomed from the start. Hard to envision any combination of events that would have led to Japan keeping the "Southern Resource Zone". Any peace allowing that would have just been an extended cease-fire. Lots of things could have extended the war. I think if they knocked out some carriers at Pearl, extended further into the South Pacific (Everything up to but not including New Zealand)and took Ceylon they may have delayed the outcome for a year or so. Atomic weapons aside their industrial base could not keep pace. The only thing I wonder about is if the Soviet Union quit in December 41. Would have been a heavy lift to fight the Axis on those terms. Now that I think about it that is kind of what Japan was counting on




LoBaron -> RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm (3/2/2010 2:54:16 PM)

I think so too.

Japan was in fact a traditional 19th century rural society that was high-speed modernized
in some aspects to support the war effort.
The technical advances and the built up before the war were accomplished by a elite minority
which was never able to back up a sustained conflict.
Japan was not only lacking the capacity to build sufficient ammounts of war machinery but also
incapable of providing the needed numbers of basic machinery, technicians and mechanics.
So at the moment the war began the outcome was unavoidable.




John Lansford -> RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm (3/2/2010 3:25:23 PM)

I've seen Japan's wartime industrial capability described as worse than Italy's.  I can see why too; they had to import nearly every strategic resource, they could barely feed their people while maintaining their military, and their commercial shipping fleet was too small as well.  They did well at the start of the war by being very aggressive, using the fleet and army they'd built up prewar, and using surprise.  They couldn't even replace ships lost through attrition, much less build up their fleet, so it was inevitable that they would eventually lose.




cavalry -> RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm (3/2/2010 5:01:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Don't "poo-poo" the lack of machine guns on German tanks.  That killed the Panzer divisions during the Battle of Kursk.



You need to check your facts sir

Only the Elephant had no mg at Kursk , there were only two units of them - and they still had a excellent gun

Cav




koontz -> RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm (3/2/2010 6:28:19 PM)

Regarding Barbarossa.

Not attack SU?

The whole idea Hitler had with the war was to create
Lebensraum in east.

Better to wait till -42 -43 -44 when the Red army attacks?
Don`t think so.

Its wasnt possible due to bad weahter to start in may.
Was still too muddy.

Operation Blau started at 28 june for instance.

I think the Gerries should have focus on to destroy as many Soviet Divison as they did
more if possible and to capture Leningrad.

Then be able to use the port for logistic to minimize the chaos with railway in poland.
And prevent SU Subs to operate in the baltic.

And to threat the civilians better.

My two ören

[:)]




freeboy -> RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm (3/2/2010 6:40:40 PM)

[X(][:-][:-]
quote:

Not to be picky but these all have tactical implications not strategic.

Out of your choices I say 1, it hurt them over the long run.

2. the Germans had great combined arms doctrine so I think that the impact of the guns was not as great as 1.
3. The British would of fought on regardless and I think it would of only prolonged what resulted anyways.

I would say the biggest strategic blunder was the Luftwaffe breaking off bombing FC fields and going after the cities. They were so close to having air superiority that I think Hitler might of thought twice about attacking Britian.


aggread.. these all three where bad but if corrected still the end was certain faced with US USSR and others .... they simply drowned in a sea of enemies.

Perjhaps shortsightedness in not seeing HOW to win.. how do you knock out England and Isolate US.. how do you beat USSR? not taking Lenn and Moscow... allowng them to survive in 42 is critical.. if Germany was to win.. If Japan was going t owin perhaps attacking US was not the best idea???[:-]




John Lansford -> RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm (3/2/2010 7:43:07 PM)

The Germans had zero experience in conducting an amphibious assault, much less one against a defended coastline such as Britain's.  Their Sealion plans were laughable in how disorganized they were; using ferries, tugs pulling barges, and merchant ships to beach at high tide to transport a division?  They calculated the unloading rate; if you thought a Transport TF unloading at a size 1 port takes a long time to unload, it would have been faster than the Germans unloading over a British beach!  

Their approach routes were so long they worried about how they could keep their horses healthy enough during the trip (yes, that was their transport, horses), and any follow up waves were going to take over 18 hours to arrive (9 hours to Europe, then 9 hours back, not counting loading).  They thought about an airborne landing on a port, then bringing in the ships to unload there, but threw that out when the British fortified most if not all of them.

In short, it didn't really matter what happened in the air, their invasion plans weren't going anywhere even with control of the air over the invasion fleet.




Shark7 -> RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm (3/3/2010 4:10:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

If I recall the Germans were in the process of buidling a CV. The hull was finished, but Hitler abandoned it. Does anyone know what the name was suppost to be?[sm=character0085.gif]


Graf Zeppelin

It was eventually hulked at Kiel by the Russians IIRC.




John Lansford -> RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm (3/3/2010 4:35:21 PM)

The terrain didn't favor the Germans being able to take Leningrad; they had already sent as many divisions in that direction as they could given the marshes and lakes in the way.  There was a very narrow window of opportunity in the fall of 1941 when they 'might' have made it into the city, but the Soviets were rushing divisions there from everywhere and it would have turned into a Stalingrad a year early. 

It didn't help either that Hitler ordered the northern front units diverted to the central region for a final attack on Moscow, but they had no chance to take and hold either of those two cities in 1941.  Their forces were too extended and at the extreme end of a very tenuous supply line, and the divisions were exhausted and worn down.  The panzer divisions especially were able to keep moving only by shifting regiments from one unit to another, while the depleted units fell back or became infantry-only.  It's amazing how threadbare the German army was by late 1941, and how close to the margin they were even after they rebuilt before the 1942 offensives.




John 3rd -> RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm (3/3/2010 5:09:26 PM)

How about if Hitler had taken Raeder's strategy to take Malta and Gibraltor to effectively seal off the Med and then grab Egypt?  Always seemed to me that this was a missed opportunity to FINISH off the Med.  The move might have freed up several valuable German units as well as most of Italy's troops and forces.  I KNOW how horrible Italy was but the Italians could have freed up additional German units in SE Europe for the USSR.

This is more of a tactical move but it would have had real implications to the Brits as well as help the thrust against USSR.




spence -> RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm (3/3/2010 5:21:01 PM)

The Germans investigated/studied the idea of taking Gibraltar to seal off the Med but Franco's assistance/acquiescence (for a large German presence in his country) was needed and the price he was asking was too big: that is, he wanted France's African Empire or significant parts of it. That would have put the peace with Vichy right in the toilet which would have made the situation in the West much less stable.




JohnDillworth -> RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm (3/3/2010 5:27:22 PM)

quote:

Its wasnt possible due to bad weahter to start in may.
Was still too muddy.

I believe it was scheduled to go in May. The reason it was late is because troops had to be sent to the Mediterranean to bail out Mussolini's fiasco in Greece.
From Wikipedia:
"Adolf Hitler, in conversation with Leni Riefenstahl, would bitterly say that "if the Italians hadn't attacked Greece and needed our help, the war would have taken a different course. We could have anticipated the Russian cold by weeks and conquered Leningrad and Moscow. There would have been no Stalingrad"."

Might be Hitlers selective memory. There is another school that thinks that the slow construction of airfields in Eastern Europe to support Barbarossa was the real culprit. Either way. The original plan was for MAy.





Nikademus -> RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm (3/3/2010 5:39:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

How about if Hitler had taken Raeder's strategy to take Malta and Gibraltor to effectively seal off the Med and then grab Egypt?  Always seemed to me that this was a missed opportunity to FINISH off the Med.  The move might have freed up several valuable German units as well as most of Italy's troops and forces.  I KNOW how horrible Italy was but the Italians could have freed up additional German units in SE Europe for the USSR.



The Italian Chief of Staff, Pietro Badoglio made it very clear to Berlin that Italy wanted to eliminate Malta permanently as a threat but Hitler put them off due to German disinterest in the Med (unless they were in complete charge), the thought that air and submarines alone might be decisive, and distrust of Italian feats of arms. At the time (late 1940/early 41), there was a window of opportunity vs. Malta and while Italy was not yet prepared for a full scale amphibious assault in 1940, a fuller cooperation with Germany and the use of Paratroopers might have gotten the job done.

The heavy losses at Crete though coupled with Hitler's fear of the RN pretty much scrapped it despite continued noises.







Frank -> RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm (3/3/2010 11:10:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: che200

P.hausser unfortunately i do not agree with your answer, Yes Soviet union inflicted most casualties to germany but the biggest contibuter to the defeat of the Axis was USA. If the Usa stayed neutral Great Britain would have collapsed and if Britain collapses Soviet Union would have been alone against Germany, Italy an Japan how long would they have lasted. Plus USA provided a lot of logistics to USSR and Britain. Something like 80% of trucks used by soviet union where Lend Lease. Lend Lease kept the war going. No USA to provide Money(credit for Russia and Britain so they could buy Items they did not produce) and equipment (I would reccomend to check what russia was producing and even england) would have resulted in Stalemate.

My 2 cents



Sorry, but the USA were at an undeclared war in 1941, supporting the Brits with about anything the Brits needed. Therefore Hitler only made this unofficial war official. The USA supported the Brits from the very first day of the conflict.




che200 -> RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm (3/3/2010 11:35:11 PM)

Nick Malta would have been a tough nut to crack. German and Italian paratroopers would have very few areas were to land and beaches where heavily mined.




bklooste -> RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm (3/4/2010 3:50:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Don't "poo-poo" the lack of machine guns on German tanks.  That killed the Panzer divisions during the Battle of Kursk.


Thats wrong , there were 1 or 2 battalions of Tigers that were rejected in favour of a competing design ( Porshe Tigers) just these 60 or 70 tanks had no MG and it only really affected 1 battle these units were expendable and not really part of standard TOE. Kursk was lost because it was stupid. German successes relied on surprise and mobility here the location was obvious and the 6 months the Russians spent creating defences prevented any kind of mobility and fought the kind of war the Russians wanted.




bklooste -> RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm (3/4/2010 3:55:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

I did not say US help in ´40 or ´41.

All that would happen is a retreat of the RAF further north where it was nearly impossible for the LW to
harm anything because of single engine fighter range.
The British already increased pilot training during the BoB and outproduced Germany in total number of
AC.

As I said, not much impact.


How can the RAF do this they would have had to evacuate London since the germans could strike arifields within fighter range of it...Im sure the Luftwaffe would have loved sending 300 planes every day over London with Indecinaries i think whoever was in charge of teh RAF who did that would be out of a job .




bklooste -> RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm (3/4/2010 5:20:03 AM)

I dont think you can describe it as 19c rural . Japan had one of the biggest ship building industries in the world , one of the biggest merchant fleets , they also had a huge clothing manufacturing and export industry and a rapidly expanding industrial complex in Manchuria.

What Japan didnt have was a huge steel production but that was because they used little in construction and had a small auto industry which is closer to European countries. The US in 39 despite being also mostly rural also had a comparitevely large car industry which means they , needed more roads and bridges , throw in New York and you have a big steel industry. Expanding existing industry is much easier than building new plants .

The big issue with Japan was that it was much smaller than the US eg 1/3 of the population and 1/10 of the GDP ( but GDP is a silly measurement since it relies on exchange rates)
the even big issue was all the resources needed to be imported . The US estimated that the interdiction of shipping restricted the Japanese economy massively and even if there was no direct bombing product in 45 would have been at most 40% of what it reached in 44. Also if it wasnt for the very succesful US submarine campaign the Japanese economy in 44 would have bene significantly large as it was merchant shipping produced in 44 was 6 times 41 levels .

http://www.usaaf.net/surveys/pto/pbs16.htm

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

I think so too.

Japan was in fact a traditional 19th century rural society that was high-speed modernized
in some aspects to support the war effort.
The technical advances and the built up before the war were accomplished by a elite minority
which was never able to back up a sustained conflict.
Japan was not only lacking the capacity to build sufficient ammounts of war machinery but also
incapable of providing the needed numbers of basic machinery, technicians and mechanics.
So at the moment the war began the outcome was unavoidable.





bklooste -> RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm (3/4/2010 5:27:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

The Germans investigated/studied the idea of taking Gibraltar to seal off the Med but Franco's assistance/acquiescence (for a large German presence in his country) was needed and the price he was asking was too big: that is, he wanted France's African Empire or significant parts of it. That would have put the peace with Vichy right in the toilet which would have made the situation in the West much less stable.


You sure about that ? IMHO this is not a high price... What was Vichy france going to do , they complain to much they get Anexed . Basically it would have forced Spain to take and guard those assets... Meaning something like Torch would have attacked Spain. Sounds greate to me a semi neutral covering your SW flank.




Torplexed -> RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm (3/4/2010 10:25:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bklooste


quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

The Germans investigated/studied the idea of taking Gibraltar to seal off the Med but Franco's assistance/acquiescence (for a large German presence in his country) was needed and the price he was asking was too big: that is, he wanted France's African Empire or significant parts of it. That would have put the peace with Vichy right in the toilet which would have made the situation in the West much less stable.


You sure about that ? IMHO this is not a high price... What was Vichy france going to do , they complain to much they get Anexed . Basically it would have forced Spain to take and guard those assets... Meaning something like Torch would have attacked Spain. Sounds greate to me a semi neutral covering your SW flank.


Spain’s claim to a chunk of Vichy France’s African empire was too high a price for Hitler due to bad timing. The Hendaye meeting between Franco and Hitler came weeks after Vichy French forces at Dakar had repulsed a British and Gaullist attempt to seize the port. Hitler cherished hopes that this action presaged active Vichy military support for his armies. Dakar, which was at the time perceived in London as an unalloyed fiasco, thus yielded an uncomprehended blessing: Hitler refused to offer Franco French colonial possessions in return for joining the war. Hitler imagined that the meeting at Hendayne was a formality, at which Franco would merely announce the date of his entry into the war. Instead, to the Germans’ dismay, the Spanish leader produced a long shopping list of conditions for participation, new colonies in Africa prominent among them. Thinking his flank already covered and not willing to be upstaged by anyone, he turned Franco down.

Thus passed what subsequently proved a turning point. Though Franco continued to dicker with belligerence, and maintained his faith in Axis victory until at least the end of 1942, the moments at which the Spanish were willing to fight never coincided with those at which the Germans thought their price for doing so worth paying.




mike scholl 1 -> RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm (3/4/2010 12:59:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bklooste

How can the RAF do this they would have had to evacuate London since the Germans could strike airfields within fighter range of it...I'm sure the Luftwaffe would have loved sending 300 planes every day over London with indecinaries I think whoever was in charge of the RAF who did that would be out of a job .



What have you been smoking? At best, the Germans hoped to force the British to abandon the airfields along the SE Coast of England. London is farther NW, and at the very limit of Bf-109 range. In fact, many of the airfields in that area were beyond German fighter range. Trying to bomb London in daylight was what got the Luftwaffe soundly trounced in the Battle of Britain..., and closing down the Southeastern airfields would just put more fighters in the London area.




bklooste -> RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm (3/4/2010 1:17:36 PM)

thx Torplexed for that detailed explanation that makes a lot of sense when viewed at the time, funny how little battles like Dakar can have such huge consequences..if they didnt put up a fight than Hitler would have given them to Franco possibly bringing Spain into the war later.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Torplexed



Spain’s claim to a chunk of Vichy France’s African empire was too high a price for Hitler due to bad timing. The Hendaye meeting between Franco and Hitler came weeks after Vichy French forces at Dakar had repulsed a British and Gaullist attempt to seize the port. Hitler cherished hopes that this action presaged active Vichy military support for his armies. Dakar, which was at the time perceived in London as an unalloyed fiasco, thus yielded an uncomprehended blessing: Hitler refused to offer Franco French colonial possessions in return for joining the war. Hitler imagined that the meeting at Hendayne was a formality, at which Franco would merely announce the date of his entry into the war. Instead, to the Germans’ dismay, the Spanish leader produced a long shopping list of conditions for participation, new colonies in Africa prominent among them. Thinking his flank already covered and not willing to be upstaged by anyone, he turned Franco down.

Thus passed what subsequently proved a turning point. Though Franco continued to dicker with belligerence, and maintained his faith in Axis victory until at least the end of 1942, the moments at which the Spanish were willing to fight never coincided with those at which the Germans thought their price for doing so worth paying.





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