Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and dive bomber accuracy? (Full Version)

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fflaguna -> Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and dive bomber accuracy? (1/13/2010 10:06:48 PM)

Does extremely high altitude affect torpedo bomber or diver bomber accuracy? And how much does altitude really affect level bombers as AE stands now?

Also, aside from maneuverability ratings, does flying your CAP at high or low altitude really make that much of a difference?



WITPPL -> RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and dive bomber accuracy? (1/13/2010 10:11:42 PM)

No for Torpedoes. Not sure but I think not for DBs
LBs - A LOT.
CAP - Yes, time to intercept boogies.

quote:

ORIGINAL: fflaguna

Does extremely high altitude affect torpedo bomber or diver bomber accuracy? And how much does altitude really affect level bombers as AE stands now?

Also, aside from maneuverability ratings, does flying your CAP at high or low altitude really make that much of a difference?




fflaguna -> RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and dive bomber accuracy? (1/13/2010 10:25:02 PM)

quote:

LBs - ALTITUDE AFFECTS A LOT.

I understand that super low altitude bombing runs by LBs used to be way unbalanced, but that it has been fixed. Is it still a large factor in, say, static airfield bombings?
quote:

CAP - Yes, time to intercept boogies.

If I have a crappy type flying CAP, I can fly at 15k altitude and intercept basically anything spotted more than 15-25 minutes out, right?



Bradley7735 -> RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and dive bomber accuracy? (1/14/2010 12:56:58 AM)

If you set your dive bombers too high, they will level bomb and not dive bomb. That means they will hit much less than your torpedo bombers. Set your dive bombers to 10k altitude if you want them to be accurate. Set them higher if you want them to miss most of the time, but be slightly safer from flak.

Torpedo bombers will not be affected by altitude settings from what I can tell.

bc



Feinder -> RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and dive bomber accuracy? (1/14/2010 1:34:39 AM)

I haven't played AE that extensively, but it used to be in WitP that the altitude setting affected the number of AC per (attacking) section of a squadron. So maybe your Altitude was set to 10k, you'd get something like 6x AC per section. But 24k you got 8x AC per section. And then each section would attack the same target. So in a 24x AC squadron with the above example, you'd get 4x sections of 6x AC on the same target at 10k; and 3x sections of 8x AC on the same target at 24k.

I don't remember exactly the break points and number of AC per section, but basically, the lower the altitude, the more sections with fewer AC are created.

-F-



Bradley7735 -> RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and dive bomber accuracy? (1/14/2010 1:54:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

I haven't played AE that extensively, but it used to be in WitP that the altitude setting affected the number of AC per (attacking) section of a squadron. So maybe your Altitude was set to 10k, you'd get something like 6x AC per section. But 24k you got 8x AC per section. And then each section would attack the same target. So in a 24x AC squadron with the above example, you'd get 4x sections of 6x AC on the same target at 10k; and 3x sections of 8x AC on the same target at 24k.

I don't remember exactly the break points and number of AC per section, but basically, the lower the altitude, the more sections with fewer AC are created.

-F-


That might have been WITP, but it's definitely not WITP AE. I went through months of heart ache because I was trying to get my DB to attack in 9 plane groups, instead of 4 plane groups, and all I accomplished was a 1 in 20 hit rate vs large capital ships, and about a 1 in 100 hit rate vs DD's. (they were level bombing in groups of 4)

Keep them at 10k altitude, or your hit rate will be miserable.

bc



che200 -> RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and dive bomber accuracy? (1/14/2010 3:02:19 AM)

10k is dive bombing
20k is level bombing
15k-20k is glide bombing

Most accurate is 10k for divebombers



Feinder -> RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and dive bomber accuracy? (1/14/2010 8:18:29 AM)

Good to know, thanks.

I never understood why it differed the number of planes per section in WitP. I never cared much. But I never understood why.

-F-



LoBaron -> RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and dive bomber accuracy? (1/14/2010 9:48:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: che200

10k is dive bombing
20k is level bombing
15k-20k is glide bombing

Most accurate is 10k for divebombers



Only partially so. Divebombing is possible between 10 and 20k IIRC.
And 10k is only most accurate when not taking AA fire into account. No accuracy will help you if your DBīs get ripped to pieces
by heavy AA @ 10k. It really depends on the target. [;)]
Donīt forget that AA fires 2 times, first at the approach altitude and then on release altitude.



snuffl -> RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and dive bomber accuracy? (1/14/2010 10:33:23 AM)

Sorry for my ignorance but what is "glide bombing"?

I think that AA fires 3 times, first on the approach, second on bomb-release and when plane fly back to their set alt.



Sardaukar -> RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and dive bomber accuracy? (1/14/2010 11:02:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: snuffl

Sorry for my ignorance but what is "glide bombing"?

I think that AA fires 3 times, first on the approach, second on bomb-release and when plane fly back to their set alt.



Glide bombing is shallow dive bombing, for example when dive angle in dive bombing could be 70 degrees, in glide bombing it'd usually be 45 degrees or so.

Good link to explain bombing methods:

http://www.eugeneleeslover.com/USNAVY/CHAPTER-23-E.html



LoBaron -> RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and dive bomber accuracy? (1/14/2010 11:03:40 AM)

Glide bombing is performed at more shallow angles (usually up to 30°) using AC that do not have divebrakes.
And you are right, it fires 3 times though i only counted two because the last AA phase doesnt influence the bombing run anymore.



Raverdave -> RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and dive bomber accuracy? (1/14/2010 11:08:54 AM)

IIRC less than 15K and DB will dive bomb in smaller packets (2 to 4 planes?), greater than 15K but less than 20K and they will bomb in larger groups (4 to 9 ?)





LoBaron -> RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and dive bomber accuracy? (1/14/2010 11:17:05 AM)

Never heard of this Raverdave, or witnessed it. I donīt think theres a correlation between attack formation size and altitude.

Where did you get this information?



Raverdave -> RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and dive bomber accuracy? (1/14/2010 11:28:05 AM)

Certainly under WiTP you would get bigger ship formations of DB when they were set above 15K...it might have even been 17K. Have not yet found any jap flat-tops to test this out in my current game (too busy running away from them).



USS America -> RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and dive bomber accuracy? (1/14/2010 12:13:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

IIRC less than 15K and DB will dive bomb in smaller packets (2 to 4 planes?), greater than 15K but less than 20K and they will bomb in larger groups (4 to 9 ?)




This was accurate for WitP. 15k was the threshold altitude. From what is being reported, there is no difference in the number of planes in a packet for AE. I don't have enough personal AE experience yet to say.



John Lansford -> RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and dive bomber accuracy? (1/14/2010 12:30:08 PM)

I've seen attack groups larger than 4 bombers, but it was always for 2E and 4E planes.  The DB's always go in using 4 plane groups, but then I always use 10k for their altitude.



Bradley7735 -> RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and dive bomber accuracy? (1/14/2010 2:17:09 PM)

I have tested this quite a lot. I tried to do the old WITP method of increasing the altitude above 16k to get 9 group bombing runs (helps to sink ships, and not just damage them). All I did was to set them to level (or glide) bombing tactics, and they'd do that in groups of 4, and I couldn't hit crap.

I have not seen or found any method in WITP AE to get dive bombers to bomb in groups larger than 4. I'm 99% certain that that feature was removed for WITP AE.

For the record, I'm kind of glad that they did it. You can set your DB for level bombing, (thus greatly reducing their flak damage) for attacks vs non-ship targets. And, you can set them for good accuracy vs ships (although taking more damage from flak.)

I do miss the 9 plane attack groups, though. I generally prefer to sink a ship than to damage two of them.



Mike Solli -> RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and dive bomber accuracy? (1/14/2010 2:29:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: che200

10k is dive bombing
20k is level bombing
15k-20k is glide bombing

Most accurate is 10k for divebombers



[X(] OMG I never knew that!



Mike Solli -> RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and dive bomber accuracy? (1/14/2010 2:32:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

quote:

ORIGINAL: snuffl

Sorry for my ignorance but what is "glide bombing"?

I think that AA fires 3 times, first on the approach, second on bomb-release and when plane fly back to their set alt.



Glide bombing is shallow dive bombing, for example when dive angle in dive bombing could be 70 degrees, in glide bombing it'd usually be 45 degrees or so.

Good link to explain bombing methods:

http://www.eugeneleeslover.com/USNAVY/CHAPTER-23-E.html



An example of glide bombing was what the Vindicators did at Midway. The pilots didn't have the experience to dive bomb so their commander had them come in at a much shallower angle than a true dive bombing attack.



Mike Solli -> RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and dive bomber accuracy? (1/14/2010 2:33:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Never heard of this Raverdave, or witnessed it. I donīt think theres a correlation between attack formation size and altitude.

Where did you get this information?


That definitely happened in WitP. Don't know if it changed in AE.



Sardaukar -> RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and dive bomber accuracy? (1/14/2010 2:42:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli


quote:

ORIGINAL: che200

10k is dive bombing
20k is level bombing
15k-20k is glide bombing

Most accurate is 10k for divebombers



[X(] OMG I never knew that!


I think it's be more like 10-20k is dive bombing, 20k+ is level bombing and under 10k it's glide bombing. Glide bombing was used on lower altitudes, because it'd be impossible to pull out from steep dive when too low. What I did read, USN dive bombers started their dives usually from 12 000-16 500ft and pulled out from dive 1500 ft to 2500 ft, mostly closer to 2500 than lower.

This seems to be reason why players who set their DBs to 20k naval attack cannot hit anything. It seems that they are in fact instructing their planes to level bomb at that altitude. Very useful of course if attacking land targets. There seem to be definitive change in accuracy between 19k and 20k, but I haven't really tested it.



USS America -> RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and dive bomber accuracy? (1/14/2010 3:07:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli


quote:

ORIGINAL: che200

10k is dive bombing
20k is level bombing
15k-20k is glide bombing

Most accurate is 10k for divebombers



[X(] OMG I never knew that!


I think it's be more like 10-20k is dive bombing, 20k+ is level bombing and under 10k it's glide bombing. Glide bombing was used on lower altitudes, because it'd be impossible to pull out from steep dive when too low. What I did read, USN dive bombers started their dives usually from 12 000-16 500ft and pulled out from dive 1500 ft to 2500 ft, mostly closer to 2500 than lower.

This seems to be reason why players who set their DBs to 20k naval attack cannot hit anything. It seems that they are in fact instructing their planes to level bomb at that altitude. Very useful of course if attacking land targets. There seem to be definitive change in accuracy between 19k and 20k, but I haven't really tested it.


We need a definite answer on this from a developer. [:)]



Sardaukar -> RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and dive bomber accuracy? (1/14/2010 3:08:38 PM)

Indeed. [8D]



che200 -> RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and dive bomber accuracy? (1/14/2010 3:26:04 PM)

In the Air OOB this is what Catharthes answered regarding Divebombers:

If no one seems to know, then why seem to ask?

Info passed on to me is as follows:
Glide bombing is 16-18K feet.


So:

100-1000      Skipbombing
1000-8000    ??????????
9000-15000   Divebombing
16000-20000 Glidebombing
20000-         Levelbombing

We had a thread a while back by Nemo and these were the conclusions we got to. Till now the only dev who answered was Cathartes.



sfbaytf -> RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and dive bomber accuracy? (1/14/2010 5:41:06 PM)

One thing I have noticed is the 1000 SAP bombs from my SBD and Helldivers do very little damage to BB's. In stock WitP they seemed to be more effective.



Mynok -> RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and dive bomber accuracy? (1/14/2010 6:10:53 PM)


Are you sure they are SAP bombs? Because there is a GP version too.



Nikademus -> RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and dive bomber accuracy? (1/14/2010 8:01:00 PM)

They are one in the same.



michaelm -> RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and dive bomber accuracy? (1/15/2010 8:55:23 AM)

Mission: Bombing
A/c type: DB
(1) Group altitude: 10-15K
A/c are treated as if performing a diving attack
(2) Group altitude: 16-19K
A/c are treated as if performing a glide attack
(3) Group altitude: <1K
A/c are treated as if performing a low level attack
(4) Group altitude: 20+ or 1-9K
A/c are treated as if performing a normal horizontal attack
The attacks are based on altitude flown.
If I had to do it again, I would probably let the player pick an 'attack tactic' which would allow planes to approach target at the group alt but determine the attack alt and bombing type based on the 'attack tactic'.

Diving attacks have a better chance than gliding attacks to make a hit; pilots with good NAVAL_BOMB skills have a better chance. Exit altitude is 1000-4000'.
Glide attacks have a better chance than level bombing but not as good as diving attacks to make a hit, but; again better skilled pilots have a better chance. Exit altitude is 2000-5000'.

[Typo after all that - items 3 & 4]



Sardaukar -> RE: Do very high altitudes affect torpedo bomber and dive bomber accuracy? (1/15/2010 9:28:35 AM)

Thanks! Very helpful!



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