Ok these RCM units? (Full Version)

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Lanconic -> Ok these RCM units? (12/12/2009 11:37:12 AM)

I have tried using these and they do nothing I can see.
What exactly are they for?
How do they work?




swift -> RE: Ok these RCM units? (12/12/2009 11:42:47 AM)

quote:

What exactly are they for?


RCM [:'(]

which one are you talking about?? do not confuse the ECM with RCM a/c.
At the start of the 43 campaign you only have ECMs, later you get RCM a/c and you can upgrade the ECM to RCM aircrafts

there are a few with BC and a few in the Med.

IŽd suggest to use them only during the night.
They use different devices to disrupt German Radars or Radio chatter or homing devices.





Hard Sarge -> RE: Ok these RCM units? (12/12/2009 12:12:07 PM)

been updated Swift

as I said before when I was working them up

you need to work in pairs or better to get the best out of them, a single, is not strong enough to block out all singals

either send them out as a stream, or send them out as pairs/trips to a area to block out

the Welly Elint, also carries it own type of Windows, but very short ranged, so put one on each side of a radar site, to try and shut it down

the Mossy is still mainly a Elint and a Moonbeam unit, so it is a decoy, and info hunter

the Hally is the first of the main force RCM squadrons, this will shut down, block singals, but also needs to be used in at least pairs (this will mess with Ground and Air Radar, much weaker then Windows, but much longer ranged)

so, use them in pairs, or greater, use them in streams, hassle with them, is you will never have enough to really do more then hassle the other side, but, working with the daylight forces, to shut down key radar sites, along with some jammed ones, will help out

the German Freya, and 202 airborne radars will be easy to shut down, the Mammut, can be, but much less chance, the 220 (SN-2) will be Much HARDer, but there are jammers for that later on

later on, you will get RCM that shut down, Freya, Mammut and airborne radars at the same time (much larger bellies)





swift -> RE: Ok these RCM units? (12/12/2009 12:13:31 PM)

nice [8D]




Tuk -> RE: Ok these RCM units? (1/21/2010 3:14:39 PM)

Playing the LW in 1943, the combination of new gun values and these electronic warfare thingies have completely changed the night war. I'm not sure if there's much point now in sending up night fighters, or maybe I haven't worked out tactics to meet the changes yet. This is what I find, though-

This applies to both patrols and interceptors. About one in four sightings or less results in an attack. I'd guess somewhere just less than half of attacks produce a kill, depending on plane type. Ju 88C are now little more effective than Bf 110G4. He and Do types are nothing like as effective as their former selves either.

As my understanding is that only 110s and single engine planes were used to patrol, I use the other plane types to intercept specific formations. I also use 110s this way.

Single engine fighters are now fairly useless. Even on what I understand to be perfect conditions (low cloud over ground AA silhouetting bombers for high flighing patrols) the fighters seldom see the bombers. When they do,  the fighter is as likely to get shot down as its bomber target.

Over all, instead of 25+ interceptor kills on a heavily intercepted raid, I struggle to achieve 10. This doesn't include targets that subsequently crash as I have no way of knowing whether they were damaged by flak or fighters. There was one raid I intercepted very successfully, but without pilots reporting back I don't understand why. Attempting the same tactics got different results the next night. Generally, including runway crashes, night intruders and being shot down, I achieve only parity of losses with bomber command in direct kills.

Flack seems to be as effetive as before. 

Is this the intention of the changes and should I be searching for new tactics, or do the changes need toning down?





Hard Sarge -> RE: Ok these RCM units? (1/21/2010 4:31:02 PM)

this is Swifts area of being the expert

early game, there is a lot of the Window effect still going on

early on, Wild Pig is still the better way to go





Tuk -> RE: Ok these RCM units? (1/21/2010 5:06:33 PM)

Mmm. I recall you saying this before the changes, but the changes have, errr, changed things, so I suspect Swift is no longer the expert. Please prove me wrong though, Swift.

According to my infallible source of expertise (Wiki) Wild Pig was a tactic used only by single engine fighters and some 110s , but the way I'm using it at any rate, it doesn't work, and the single engine fighters are now congenitally incapable of shooting down more bombers than their own losses.

This being the case, I'm achieving better, though all the same fairly useless results, with tame piggies.

I don't suppose it will make their guns any more powerful or their machines less vulnerable to return fire, but how much higher should the patrols be than the bombers?




Hard Sarge -> RE: Ok these RCM units? (1/21/2010 6:42:45 PM)

well, depends on the plane's weapon type, the Slant music works better below the bomber's alt

in 43, I don't think there is enough RCM stuff in there to really make much difference, other then what the WINDOW code is doing





Hard Sarge -> RE: Ok these RCM units? (1/21/2010 7:08:44 PM)

for what it is worth, I am looking to see what I can see, will take a bit to get a idea

first run, I see 11 air to air kills for the LW in two days, with about 45 kills total (AA, Air, Crash and landing crashes)(RAF got 10 kills, 9 by NF's)





Hard Sarge -> RE: Ok these RCM units? (1/21/2010 7:19:34 PM)

early on, 11 days, 137 to 33 losses, 42 LW air to air kills, with 12 RAF air to air kills (2 bomber)

Best units, are the Ju 88's with the Fug 212, the Fug 202 is being shut down (which is as designed)





sven6345789 -> RE: Ok these RCM units? (1/21/2010 8:27:57 PM)

i started a 1943 campaign recently, and the nightfighters worked nicely, shot down 33 bombers.
to bad i play the allied side[:(]




Tuk -> RE: Ok these RCM units? (1/21/2010 9:34:29 PM)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilde_Sau
"The employment of this procedure was most successful in the night of 23/24 August 1943, when Berlin was attacked. The "Wilde Sau" aircraft, under the personal leadership Geschwaderkommodore Hajo Herrmann, claimed 57 aircraft brought down. Herrmann received the Oak Leaves to the Knight's Cross for this action."

OK, we can assume then that not every night was as good since this was the most successful. Elsewhere in this article we find... "...Jagdgeschwader 300, who used the Wilde Sau tactic for the first time on the night of 3/4 July 1943, when 653 RAF aircraft attacked Cologne. The German fighters, taking advantage of the illumination from searchlights, target indicator flares and ground fires claimed 12 aircraft shot down, but had to share their claims with the anti-aircraft batteries who also claimed the downings."
 
...which is somewhat less impressive. However, I'm at a loss to get 12 sightings a night from single engine fighters let alone attacks or kills. Actually I somewhat dread a single engine attack as it is nearly as likely to result in my own plane being shot down. As said, if crashes and enemy night intruder activity are included, the overall ratio of kills is very low and a parity.
 
Sven6345789, I'm not sure that what the nightfighters in general achieved or did not in your game is so helpful in determining what Wilde Sau units achieve in mine. I can knock out 20-30 BC craft from all causes in a night but that's not the issue I'm raising. I can tell you that there's no way my Wilde Sau units would ever shoot down ten units in a night in 1943, let alone 57, they just don't have the firepower or endurance of enemy fire.
 
 
 
"early on, 11 days, 137 to 33 losses, 42 LW air to air kills, with 12 RAF air to air kills (2 bomber)

Best units, are the Ju 88's with the Fug 212, the Fug 202 is being shut down (which is as designed)"

 
Is that eleven days or eleven raids? If raids, that's less than 4 nightfighter kills a night, right, tame and wild pigs combined? Sounds very low to me, but air war is  not my strongest historical area.




sven6345789 -> RE: Ok these RCM units? (1/22/2010 8:45:26 AM)

since we are talking about Electronics, what is the range of OBOE in the game? read something about 250 Miles in Wikipedia irl. but in the game?




Hard Sarge -> RE: Ok these RCM units? (1/22/2010 1:06:36 PM)

350 (it was good into the Ruhr)

Tuk

for your info, is that 57 kills, or 57 claims, those really can be much difference (and yes, I have the book, and many others)

with in game, there are a lot of things that effect attacks, one of the bigger ones is Moon light, the Darker it is, the more Radar comes into effect (air to air and ground to air)

Freya and Fug 202 are getting very much hurt, by Window and Mandel, which is why the Wild Pig tactic comes into effect

so I guess it comes down to what are your Wild Pig Tactics you are using and why are they not working

(seeing that the 109 has 3 20mm's and the 190 has 4 20mm's, I don't think it is a question of them not having the firepower)

other words, I need more details on what is going on, or not going on






Nicholas Bell -> RE: Ok these RCM units? (1/22/2010 2:42:57 PM)

This got me curious, so I ran a few tests myself, and results can quite variable.  Using Nachjagd I, I played both sides but let the AI handle everything.  On the first test, Bomber Command lost 54 planes - 14 to FlaK and 40 to fighters.  LW losses were 4 - 2 to return fire and 2 to crashes.  The Wilde Sau only got 3 kills.  On the second test, first day of the scenario again, the losses were BC-28 (18 Flak) and LW 1.  On both tests, the AI refused to fly any BC raids on the 2nd day although there were units which appeared to meet morale requirements and the weather was okay.

I have conducted AI vs AI campaign games and watched the action at various points to the bitter end in 1945.  Usually BC losses are in the range of 5-10% less than historical for the entire period.  And while often BC losses seem low, I have also witnessed the AI inflict up to 120 bomber losses on a single night (using 1.02).  However, end of campaign stats confirm that the single unit nightfighter units claim very kills - some with none!  And while some tweaking for the Wilde Sau may be in order, I just finished reading Jagdgeschwader 301/302 "Wilde Sau": In Defense Of The Reich with the Bf 109, Fw 190 and Ta 152 by Willi Reschke and was surprised to learn how infrequently they scored and how few kills the single engined night fighters actually claimed. (Hermann's boasting excluded)





Tuk -> RE: Ok these RCM units? (1/22/2010 3:09:31 PM)

I made some notes on last night's Berlin raid for that very purpose. [8D]

Light 6%
Cloud: 20% @ 10 900 ft.

Raids at 15-18 000 ft

Tame:wild porkers ratio about 8 or 9:1 almost all NJG units in the air.

Wilde Sau went in at 17 000 and 19 000 which is lower alt than I usually send them, but as 19-23 000 alt didn't work I was trying lower.
Graphics indicated partial cloud under some patrols.
I found 2 units operating at 15 000. I don't know if they would have flown lower or I mistakenly sent them in at default alt. There were no sighting messages for wild units.

No sightings, no kills.

Tame units-

Ju 88 scored 9 kills, best in a while.
Bf 110G-4M1 4 kills
Do J and N made several sightings which didn't lead to attacks.

About half all sightings led to attacks which is high in my experience. About a third of attacks led to a kill.

BC lost 28 to all causes
LW lost 3 to crashes.

23 Sept 1943 Campaign Jg 300 scores so far, excluding daytime losses.

Bf 109 G-6/U4N
I.   JG 300 3 kills, 1 lost in air, 3 lost landing,  net 3:4
III. JG 300 1 kill, 1 lost in air. 1 lost landing,    net 1:2

FW 190A-5/U2
Stab JG 300                                             net 1:2
II. JG 300                                                net 3:4

8 kills, 8 shot down 4 shot down while landing
Total 12 losses

Ratio 1:1 air to air
Ratio 2:3 including landing losses.



-------------------

I've no idea how many of the claims in thae article were real kills. BC records would probably be most reliable but it's not my area of expertise.










Reg -> RE: Ok these RCM units? (1/22/2010 9:39:23 PM)


As I said in this thread RCM missions and other stuff... quite a while ago, I think there is a desperate need for an overview/tutorial in the manual for night missions aimed at those not so familiar with the details of this highly technical campaign.

This should be not so much a game mechanics cheat sheet but a description of how some of the more exotic types fit into the game and what their game effects are so the new players can formulate their own strategies.





simovitch -> RE: Ok these RCM units? (1/22/2010 10:04:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Reg

I think there is a desperate need for an overview/tutorial in the manual for night missions aimed at those not so familiar with the details of this highly technical campaign.

This is true on several levels of this game. A lot of information is apparently contained in the old Talonsoft readme files, although I'm not sure who knows how much still applies to the Matrix version. These could be updated and included in the next patch:

quote:

Electronic warfare devices can be found on various aircraft and perform various functions. Below is a list of each device and a brief description of its function. The "effectiveness" sections gives you an indication of the performance differences between the different devices.

Naxos - radar detector, carried by German Night Fighters
Used to home in on H2S radar, which is commonly carried by British pathfinder bombers.
max detection range: 10 miles
effectiveness: 50

FuG 202 - aircraft radar, earliest version of the German airborne radar
Airborne radar fitted in Axis night-fighters.
max detection range: 2 miles
effectiveness: 8* [the asterisks (*) indicates that this radar's effectiveness is
greatly reduced by 'Window', which were clouds of aluminum strips used to jam Axis
search radar.]

FuG 212 - aircraft radar
Similar to FuG 202, improved range and effectiveness.
max detection range: 2.5 miles
effectiveness: 9*

FuG 220 SN-2 - aircraft radar
Airborne radar fitted in Axis night-fighters. Immune to jamming by 'Window'.
max detection range: 4 miles
effectiveness: 40

FuG 240 Berlin - aircraft radar
derived from a captured H2S radar. Immune to jamming by 'Window'.
max detection range: 5 miles
effectiveness: 50
[Note: Not available until 1945]

AI Mk.IV - aircraft radar
Airborne radar fitted in Allied night-fighters.
max detection range: 3 miles
effectiveness: 30

AI Mk.VII - aircraft radar
Airborne radar fitted in Allied night-fighters.
max detection range: 4 miles
effectiveness: 40

AI Mk.X - aircraft radar
Airborne radar fitted in Allied night-fighters.
max detection range: 9 miles
effectiveness: 50

H2S - aircraft navigation radar
Airborne ground-mapping radar fitted in British pathfinder bombers.
effectiveness: 55

H2X - aircraft navigation radar
Airborne ground-mapping radar fitted in American pathfinder bombers.
effectiveness: 60

Oboe - aircraft navigation system
Airborne navigation system using radio beams for precision bombing in poor visibility.
max range: 300 miles from friendly base (the beams are actually projected from the airfield and are effective only within the indicated miles; any aircraft performing missions outside their Oboe range will not benefit from the navigation system).
effectiveness: 65

Serrate - radar detector
Used to home in on FuG 212 radar.
Somewhat effective against other airborne radars.
max detection range: 10 miles
effectiveness: 50 vs FuG 212 (10 vs other airborne radars)

Serrate IV - radar detector
Used to home in on FuG 220 SN-2 radar.
Also effective against other airborne radars.
max detection range: 10 miles
effectiveness: 50 vs FuG 220 (40 vs other airborne radars)

Jostle - radio jammer
Used to jam radio frequencies used by Axis ground controllers directing night-fighter
interceptions.
max range: 100 miles
effectiveness: 20
[Note: If a night fighter is within 100 miles from a unit with Jostle radio jammers,
its communication ability might be jammed, and you will lose control of the unit
for as long as the jamming is in effect.]

Mandrel - radar jammer
Used to jam radar frequencies used by Axis ground search radars.
max range: 100 miles
effectiveness: 20
[Note: Effective use of these jammers is represented on the map with small red circles appearing around Axis radar stations.]

Piperack - radar jammer
Used to jam FuG 220 SN-2 airborne radar.
Also effective against other airborne radars.
max range: 20 miles
effectiveness: 15 vs FuG 220 (10 vs other airborne radars)

ELINT receivers - radio intelligence equipment
Used to gather information on Axis radio and radar transmissions.
Such information eventually led to development of devices to jam radars and disrupt Axis communications.
max range: 100 miles
effectiveness: 25

Where does Electronic Warfare Come Into Play Most Often in BTR? Although electronic warfare is used throughout all the campaigns in BTR, it's most significant in the Nachtjagd Scenarios dealing with Bomber Command and German night fighters. Especially during Nachtjagd III, you will have the opportunity to use all of your aircrafts' radar devices to their full extent.




DicedT -> RE: Ok these RCM units? (1/23/2010 3:28:21 AM)

In the first couple months of my '43 PBEM, the LW could easily shoot down 40 bombers in a night. Now it's December '43, and in the last 10 turns of night raids, I've shot down maybe 5 bombers. My entire force consists of He-219s and Ju-88C6s. Lighting has varied from zero to 12 percent.

Windows and ECM/RCM notwithstanding, there's something wrong here.




Hard Sarge -> RE: Ok these RCM units? (1/23/2010 8:20:12 AM)

I think you gave part of your own answer in your post, the lighting is very low

Radar is used to get a contact, once you get a contact, you got to make a sighting, once you get a sighting, you got to pass all of the other stuff needed, to make an attack

in very low light settings, it is very HARD to make the sighting part, even if you are getting the radar contact




Tuk -> RE: Ok these RCM units? (1/23/2010 12:57:51 PM)

Radar is used to get a contact, once you get a contact, you got to make a sighting, once you get a sighting, you got to pass all of the other stuff needed, to make an attack

in very low light settings, it is very HARD to make the sighting part, even if you are getting the radar contact

 
Good, now we know a little of what's under the hood. But in relation to the wild pigs, we are not dealing with moonlight which might actually detract from sighting abilities. Instead it is backlighting of clouds by searchlights and ground fires, the bombers above the clouds silhouetted for high flying fighters. From outside the hood I see no evidence that this is modelled in game, but is it?





Hard Sarge -> RE: Ok these RCM units? (1/24/2010 9:11:08 AM)

from some short runs I watched/set up

the raid came into the target, bombers got coned, and the Pigs sighted and attacked, some chased, others stayed on patrol

the system seems to work as designed, I can't help with the die rolls

now, if the game models the backlighting of clouds by searchlights, I couldn't tell you, it does model the fact that the AA didn't follow the Alt rules very often

one hassle is, you will be getting mission kills, instead of fighter kills, damaged planes that get damaged and later crash, do not always get "claimed" as air to air kills, or ground to air kills

you may notice that you get 10 air to air kills, and 12 Flak kills, and see that BC lost 33 planes that night, not all of those are just bad landings, they are damaged planes that didn't make it home





Tuk -> RE: Ok these RCM units? (1/24/2010 12:04:05 PM)

it does model the fact that the AA didn't follow the Alt rules very often

Lol, indeed, I just had 7 of a 36 wild FW patrol hit by flack, fortunately they all got home. They made roughly 10 sightings over target with very little cloud and made no attacks. With moon at 2 and light zero until about 03:00, wild 110s did much better, out scoring everything else tho I wasn't keeping an accurate tally. 40 BC lost to all causes.




kaybayray -> RE: Ok these RCM units? (1/27/2010 5:29:02 PM)

Sarge,
Your statement about the Wellington RCM birds and "Window", is this correct for the starting period of the 43 Campaign? Do any other RCM birds at the start of the 43 campaign carry and use "Window"? I know it as "Chaff" but both terms describe the same thing.

Also I have been working hard with the new Matrix Version. Great stuff guys. Lots of great improvements. This game just keeps gettin better n better [8D]

Later,
KayBay




K.Pooley -> RE: Ok these RCM units? (1/27/2010 6:13:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kaybayray

.
.
Do any other RCM birds at the start of the 43 campaign carry and use "Window"? I know it as "Chaff" but both terms describe the same thing.



They do indeed. Although the British called it 'window' when they first developed it, 'chaff' is now the generic term for it.




Hard Sarge -> RE: Ok these RCM units? (1/27/2010 6:43:59 PM)

okay, this is kind of touchy

yea, the other bombers would carry Window, but this is modelled by the code, the plane flying the RCM stuff, are dropping much, much more, they at times were dropping up to 4 to 10 times as much as a normal bomber, so I have added the device Window to these planes, so these will work, besides what the code does

(they even went ahead and made auto dumper, so they could just pour the stuff into it and letting it do the work, instead of the crew)

and really, that had to be one of the worst jobs of being a BC crewman

soooo

the code handles the normal Window, and the Wellington RCM handle the decoy Window

(the other RCM planes have there own missions to do)





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