People still play this? (Full Version)

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V22 Osprey -> People still play this? (8/26/2009 6:32:49 AM)

A little surprised to activity still in here, especially when there are all the games by 2by3 games(WitP, AE, UV).I figured all you guys would have moved on to War in the Pacific or something like that.But it's nice to see that even old games still have life in them.[:)]




guctony -> RE: People still play this? (8/26/2009 7:12:01 AM)

well I have the all the games you mention.

But the taste of Pacific War never gets sour.

And if you play PAC WAR. eventually you appreciate Witp AE much more.

Regards





Capt. Harlock -> RE: People still play this? (8/26/2009 8:07:21 PM)

And you can't beat the price! [:D]




guctony -> RE: People still play this? (8/27/2009 4:47:30 AM)

Who says cheap is the worse. currently the simple game but it really hurts when you lose a CV. [:@]




zeke99 -> RE: People still play this? (9/1/2009 4:17:38 AM)

One advantage is that a turn can be done in 1/2h.




Skipjack_ -> RE: People still play this? (9/1/2009 4:43:38 AM)

Witp is wonderful if you love mine warfare [8|]

Seriously, I have tried to learn and play Witp, and I admire those who have conducted the games described in the forums. I just have not been able to love it. I ran the Guadalcanal campaign and found it plenty of additional work, but not a lot of additional fun. There is a trade-off between detail and playability. I guess those of us hanging out here like the playability of Pacwar.

Sounds like AE reduced mine warfare by a significant margin.   Thank goodness, since I just bought it - how could I turn down that $20 discount [:D]




beserko -> RE: People still play this? (9/11/2009 4:01:14 AM)

I'm playing!  I got War in the Pacific admirials edition and can't do anything with it.  I played this in the 90's as the Japs up to the series of A bomb attacks!  Is it possible to ever win this game as the Japanese?




Skipjack_ -> RE: People still play this? (9/11/2009 4:12:47 AM)

It depends how you define "win".  Usually that means lasting longer than Japan did historically - which is "possible" ...




Capt. Harlock -> RE: People still play this? (9/11/2009 8:17:26 PM)

quote:

Is it possible to ever win this game as the Japanese?


It used to be possible because of the Kill Point Multiplier. But in the latest version, the KPM doesn't start until 1945, and doesn't reach the 2.0 X level until 1946. A very poor decision, IMHO.




beserko -> RE: People still play this? (9/24/2009 2:00:43 PM)

I define win as being able to hang onto Fiji, New Caladonia and American Samoia into 1946. Wish there was a easier way to move planes around.




jomni -> RE: People still play this? (12/21/2009 8:19:22 AM)

I have started plaing this game.
I can't stand WitP's level of detail and micro management in a Grand Campaign Setting.
But for PacWar, the level of detail is just right.
Just have to live with the quirky AI of old Gary Grigsby games.
I also recommend Gary Grigsby's Carrier Strike for some detailed carrier action.




zeke99 -> RE: People still play this? (12/24/2009 10:10:29 PM)

Hi jommi,
the AI is lousy but human opponents are not! [;)]




Andy Mac -> RE: People still play this? (5/2/2010 4:59:29 PM)

I still play this occasionally and enjoy it




Alfred -> RE: People still play this? (5/2/2010 6:43:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

I still play this occasionally and enjoy it


I bet you find it allows you to play incognito and away from all the turmoil currently going on the WITP:AE forum regarding simultaneous/CAP flak.[:D]

Alfred




bradk -> RE: People still play this? (12/3/2010 2:18:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: guctony

Who says cheap is the worse. currently the simple game but it really hurts when you lose a CV. [:@]


I got the SSI version as a Christmas gift circa 1997 in the 20 Classic Wargames collection. So I'm free all the way around.

Before that, paid $10 for Grigsby's Carrier Strike. Between those two games, the best leisure time value I've ever encountered.




sallyliao -> RE: People still play this? (5/24/2011 2:56:54 AM)

And you can't beat the price!




Cerran -> RE: People still play this? (8/21/2011 6:15:59 AM)

Oh, yes.

Wish I could have somehow saved the surface battle where I managed to catch an IJN CV task force with a few of the "Pearl Harbor survivor BBs" and a mess of cruisers... damn, do those 16" guns ruin a flight deck in a hurry.

Silly AI.
[sm=00000028.gif]




zeke99 -> RE: People still play this? (8/24/2011 11:24:48 AM)

Forget AI only human enemies count [:D]




bradk -> RE: People still play this? (8/24/2011 7:24:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zeke99

Forget AI only human enemies count [:D]



I agree. A first time PBEMer commented to me that he decided AI was only useful for learnign the mechanics of the game.

Running some test games of my new scnerio I've discovered such things as

1) Combined Fleet grabs all the TKs and kills the oil supplyl.

2) Combined Fleet will send multiple replenismnet TFs along with the carriers, sometimes with as many as 15 TKs.

3) Combined Fleet hogs the MCS at its HQ base.

4) IJ AI can't optimize the airgroup selection at a base, typically doint things like including aircraft that don't have enough range to reach any targets.

5) Matrix recommends all scenarios be played with Max Help for AI. Maybe taking out what they called AI "cheats" was a bad idea.

6) AI places subs not much better than randomly.

7) AI converts airgroups as long as there are enough aircraft in the pool to do it, enough in the pool to cover losses being irrelevant.

9) IJ AI refuses to retain A6M2s meaning late int he game G3Ms/G4Ms often fly without escort fighters.

10) If IJ player has air coverning a normal ship route, Allied AI will not route around it, continuing to do things like sending combat ships to Australia past islands with strong air where they can be easily sunk.

11) Mid game, if Allied player holds Port Moresby, IJ AI will destroy the IJN trying to take it.

12) AI can have thousands of usable aircraft in the pool but will let airgroups atrophy because of a shortage of the most modern aircraft.

In summary, learn the mechanics in a couple of AI games, then find a human opponent. Perferably one who has only placed a few PBEM games. But not none. Then when you think you're good, arrange a game with Zeke99 for a big surprise. <G>




Capt. Harlock -> RE: People still play this? (8/25/2011 8:58:37 PM)

quote:

11) Mid game, if Allied player holds Port Moresby, IJ AI will destroy the IJN trying to take it.


Interesting: that hasn't been my experience, and I've managed to hold Port Moresby for at least the last three games I played against Japanese AI. I did note one thing: Once I managed to put enough troops on Timor to hold it. (The Dutch division eventually went to an exp. of 90 from the repeated ground combat.) The AI continually ran in light SCTF's, but never committed more than one or two heavy cruisers. Most of the time it was CL's only, which were merrily dealt with by Boise, Houston, and the Dutch cruisers.




bradk -> RE: People still play this? (8/26/2011 4:46:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock

quote:

11) Mid game, if Allied player holds Port Moresby, IJ AI will destroy the IJN trying to take it.


Interesting: that hasn't been my experience, and I've managed to hold Port Moresby for at least the last three games I played against Japanese AI. I did note one thing: Once I managed to put enough troops on Timor to hold it. (The Dutch division eventually went to an exp. of 90 from the repeated ground combat.) The AI continually ran in light SCTF's, but never committed more than one or two heavy cruisers. Most of the time it was CL's only, which were merrily dealt with by Boise, Houston, and the Dutch cruisers.



I think AI was stronger in SSI.




Ranger-75 -> RE: People still play this? (10/10/2011 7:55:55 AM)

I'll only play zeke99 if he provides me his moves in advance! [:'(]




zeke99 -> RE: People still play this? (10/10/2011 11:04:59 AM)

Hi Ranger, were is the fun in that [:D]




Ranger-75 -> RE: People still play this? (10/10/2011 4:35:30 PM)

Just reinforcing the ability of the US / UK codebreaking effectiveness. [:D]

From your avatar, i presume you like to play as the Japanese - I have a few self imposed rules with wargaming. 1; I NEVER play the russians. 2; I almost never play the japanese; 3. i don't like playing the germans against the US.

Being in the US Army for this long, having friends who's fathers' were at Bataan, and having my best friend's wife's family german refugees from the soviets at the end of WW2 kind of colours my perspective a bit.





zeke99 -> RE: People still play this? (10/11/2011 3:49:26 AM)

See your point but it would be a boring game [;)]

You still can use SIGINT, tells you most of destinations anyway.




Ranger-75 -> RE: People still play this? (10/12/2011 4:20:18 AM)

Sigint is a poor implementation of exactly how much the US & UK were able to read of the Japanese (and German) signals traffic.

With a few gaps, mostly due to routine changing of code sets by the Japanese, the US could pretty much pinpoint the locations of all major IJN ships all the time.

I'm just having a little fun here anyway.

It's all cool as long as you're not one of those "axis fanboys" that were popping up a few years back.




zeke99 -> RE: People still play this? (10/12/2011 11:40:39 AM)

quote:

"axis fanboys"
[&:][&:][&:]

Anyway, I prefer playing Japs because I find it more challanging.




orabera -> RE: People still play this? (10/12/2011 6:27:28 PM)

I still love this game, even with the limitations. I'd pay for this game if it was upgraded to Windows and problems fixed.

WITP's a great game, if you want to be every staff officer in the Pacific, all at the same time.





bradk -> RE: People still play this? (10/13/2011 5:38:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock

quote:

Is it possible to ever win this game as the Japanese?


It used to be possible because of the Kill Point Multiplier. But in the latest version, the KPM doesn't start until 1945, and doesn't reach the 2.0 X level until 1946. A very poor decision, IMHO.


There are two problems with winning as IJ. One is the kill points multiplier as you observe. The other is devalued kill points. Matrix increased control and production for both sides which resulted in depreciating the value of kill points to near zero. Even with the original SSI 1944 kill multiplier, its near impossible for IJ to win with Matrix. I posted asking if anyone had ever won as IJ. No positive responses except by someone who just for grins made allied forces about as effective as a 16th century Army and Navy and took the whole map.

I don't understand the reasons. Blatant example. There was never a shortage of US Army tac bombers in SSI. Yet Matrix production through turn 150 is 250% of SSI. Why?

Consider the following.

IJ, Control And Production, Matrix 42.235, SSI 21,920
Allies, Control And Production, Matrix 70,415, SSI 32,840.
Total first turn Control and Production, Matrix 112,650, SSI 54,750

All these extra control and production points overwhelm kill points to the point their value is functionally zero.

This is why my revised scenario has values close to SSI, in addition to a kill multiplier that applies Jan 1944.

I am amazed the Matrix version is popular without a very important factor being present, that being a reasonable doubt as to the outcome. Is it really reasonable that by Jan 1944, IJ can take the whole map except for a few Australian bases, the US West Coast, destroy the RN, the original USN, and most of the 1943 USN replacements and NOT win? Yet that's what happens with Matrix. Actual game available to prove it.

You can find a statement in the original game documentation that Grigsby said he believed it was not possible for IJ to win (historically) but he gave IJ a chance to make for a BETTER GAME.




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