AI a little /too/ aggressive? (Full Version)

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EUBanana -> AI a little /too/ aggressive? (8/3/2009 7:39:38 PM)

It's gone and landed an entire division basically on its own, completely unsupported at Koumac. It's nearest base to the action is Rabaul (!). Unfortunately for it /my/ nearest base is Noumea.

While it might win through here due to the sheer scale of its landing (a whole division on New Caledonia! Java hasn't even fell yet) it's just a bit risky, no? Four crappy old destroyers peeled off from escort duty of nearby convoys got to roam the landing grounds unopposed.


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Day Time Surface Combat, near Belep Islands at 113,155, Range 16,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CM Saishu, Shell hits 16, and is sunk
xAK Akagane Maru
xAK Daiya Maru
xAK Hokutai Maru
xAK Hirota Maru
xAK Kensin Maru
xAK Kamitu Maru
xAK Kasyu Maru
xAK KunituMaru
xAK Kogane Maru
xAK Konsan Maru
xAK Manyo Maru, Shell hits 2
xAK Marei Maru
xAK Nanrei Maru
xAK Nagato Maru, Shell hits 1
xAK Nichiryo Maru
xAK Shirogane Maru
xAK Seikyo Maru
xAK Senyo Maru
xAK Teimei Maru
xAK Taiko Maru, Shell hits 1
xAK Toko Maru
xAK Toyotu Maru
xAK Tyuwa Maru
xAK Yamadori Maru
xAK Gozan Maru
xAK Ayo Maru
xAK Banshu Maru
xAK Dainiti Maru
xAK Hasuna Maru
xAK Hakodate Maru
xAK Hukuyo Maru
xAK Horai Maru
xAK Jinsai Maru
xAK Kirisima Maru
xAK Kiyoshima Maru
xAK Kyuma Maru
xAK La Plata Maru
xAK Miho Maru
xAK Nitiyo Maru
xAK Nichiren Maru
xAK Nitiai Maru
xAK Reiyo Maru
xAK Samarang Maru
xAK Nitimei Maru
xAK Shirashika Maru
xAK Sumiyoshi Maru
xAK Tempei Maru
xAK Utide Maru
xAK Zenoa Maru
xAKL Shuntai Maru
xAKL Takegawa Maru
xAKL Nittatsu Maru
xAKL Shinrei Maru
xAKL Toten Maru
xAK Fukoku Maru
xAK Shinfuku Maru, Shell hits 29, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Hirota Maru, Shell hits 7, on fire, heavy damage
xAK Kinmo Maru, Shell hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Kyokuzan Maru, Shell hits 3, on fire, heavy damage

Allied Ships
DD Crane
DD Kilty
DD King, Shell hits 1
DD Rathburne



Afternoon Air attack on 11th Division, at 113,156 (Koumac)

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 30 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes


Allied aircraft
P-39D Airacobra x 36


No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
134 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 2 (1 destroyed, 1 disabled)



Aircraft Attacking:
18 x P-39D Airacobra attacking from 100 feet
Ground Attack: 1 x 500 lb GP Bomb
18 x P-39D Airacobra attacking from 100 feet
Ground Attack: 1 x 500 lb GP Bomb




EUBanana -> RE: AI a little /too/ aggressive? (8/3/2009 7:40:10 PM)

I think the Japanese are commanded by one of my submarine captains...

"Sir, isn't this a bit risky? The fleet is in Java, the army in Burma and the Philippines, the air force fighting over Port Moresby, and the nearest base over a thousand miles away?"

"Nonsense, we're not idiots, we brought a minelayer as escort."




FAsea -> RE: AI a little /too/ aggressive? (8/3/2009 7:45:51 PM)

I would have gone with at least TWO minelayers for a force that big! [:D]




scott1964 -> RE: AI a little /too/ aggressive? (8/3/2009 7:48:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FAsea

I would have gone with at least TWO minelayers for a force that big! [:D]

And some extra Saki rations [:'(]




Scott_USN -> RE: AI a little /too/ aggressive? (8/3/2009 7:48:26 PM)

Haha I had them land at Luganville(sp) unfortunately for them CA Australia and her lighter sisters were at Noumea only a quick litte evening sail and whacked them all. Not one surface ship of concern around. Ducks in a bathtub.




EUBanana -> RE: AI a little /too/ aggressive? (8/3/2009 7:51:50 PM)

The next day when Allied reinforcements really show up in earnest is even less pretty...

Night Time Surface Combat, near Belep Islands at 113,155, Range 6,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
     xAK Seikyo Maru, Shell hits 4,  heavy fires,  heavy damage
     xAK Utide Maru, Shell hits 1
     xAK Kyokuzan Maru, Shell hits 21, and is sunk
     xAK Hirota Maru, Shell hits 4, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

Allied Ships
     DD Crane
     DD Kilty
     DD King
     DD Rathburne

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Belep Islands at 115,150

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid spotted at 19 NM, estimated altitude 19,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes


Allied aircraft
     B-26 Marauder x 6


No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
     xAK Kyuma Maru



Aircraft Attacking:
      6 x B-26 Marauder bombing from 15000 feet *
              Naval Attack:  3 x 500 lb SAP Bomb



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Belep Islands at 115,150

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid spotted at 43 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 19 minutes


Allied aircraft
     F2A-3 Buffalo x 6
     SB2U-3 Vindicator x 14
     SBD-2 Dauntless x 27


Allied aircraft losses
     SB2U-3 Vindicator: 2 damaged
     SBD-2 Dauntless: 2 damaged

Japanese Ships
     xAK Nichiryo Maru, Bomb hits 1,  heavy fires
     xAKL Tokuwa Maru, Bomb hits 1,  on fire
     xAK Shirashika Maru
     xAK Ayo Maru, Bomb hits 1
     xAK Marei Maru
     xAK Akagane Maru
     xAKL Shinrei Maru, Bomb hits 2,  heavy fires
     xAK Kiyoshima Maru, Bomb hits 1,  on fire
     xAK Kamitu Maru, Bomb hits 1,  on fire
     xAK Konsan Maru, Bomb hits 3,  heavy fires
     xAKL Junpo Maru, Bomb hits 2, and is sunk
     xAK Zenoa Maru, Bomb hits 1,  heavy fires



Aircraft Attacking:
     14 x SBD-2 Dauntless diving from 2000' *
              Naval Attack:  1 x 500 lb SAP Bomb
     13 x SBD-2 Dauntless diving from 2000' *
              Naval Attack:  1 x 500 lb SAP Bomb
     14 x SB2U-3 Vindicator diving from 2000'
              Naval Attack:  1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring xAKL Shinrei Maru
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring xAK Kamitu Maru


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Belep Islands at 115,150

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid spotted at 42 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 16 minutes


Allied aircraft
     SBD-3 Dauntless x 15


No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
     xAK Taiko Maru, Bomb hits 1,  on fire
     xAK Dainiti Maru, Bomb hits 2,  heavy fires,  heavy damage
     xAK Reiyo Maru
     xAK Kensin Maru, Bomb hits 1,  on fire



Aircraft Attacking:
     15 x SBD-3 Dauntless diving from 2000'
              Naval Attack:  1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring xAK Dainiti Maru


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Belep Islands at 115,150

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid spotted at 13 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes


Allied aircraft
     SBD-2 Dauntless x 15


No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
     xAKL Yuki Maru, Bomb hits 1,  on fire
     xAK Kamitu Maru, Bomb hits 4, and is sunk
     xAK Hakodate Maru, Bomb hits 2,  heavy fires,  heavy damage
     xAK Tempei Maru



Aircraft Attacking:
     15 x SBD-2 Dauntless diving from 2000' *
              Naval Attack:  1 x 500 lb SAP Bomb

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring xAK Kamitu Maru
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring xAK Hakodate Maru

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Belep Islands at 115,150

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid spotted at 28 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes


Allied aircraft
     F2A-3 Buffalo x 6
     SB2U-3 Vindicator x 14
     SBD-3 Dauntless x 11


Allied aircraft losses
     SB2U-3 Vindicator: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged

Japanese Ships
     xAK Hokutai Maru, Bomb hits 1
     xAK Tempei Maru, Bomb hits 3,  heavy fires,  heavy damage
     xAK Kogane Maru, Bomb hits 1,  on fire
     xAK Nichiren Maru, Bomb hits 1
     xAK Fukoku Maru, Bomb hits 2,  heavy fires,  heavy damage
     xAK Gozan Maru
     xAK Teimei Maru



Aircraft Attacking:
     11 x SBD-3 Dauntless diving from 2000'
              Naval Attack:  1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
     13 x SB2U-3 Vindicator diving from 2000'
              Naval Attack:  1 x 1000 lb GP Bomb

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring xAK Fukoku Maru


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Belep Islands at 115,150

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid spotted at 24 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes


Allied aircraft
     SBD-3 Dauntless x 14


Allied aircraft losses
     SBD-3 Dauntless: 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
     xAK KunituMaru, Bomb hits 1,  heavy fires
     xAK Daiya Maru, Bomb hits 3,  heavy fires,  heavy damage
     xAK Hirota Maru, Bomb hits 2,  heavy fires
     xAK Yamadori Maru, Bomb hits 2,  heavy fires,  heavy damage
     xAK Tempei Maru, and is sunk



Aircraft Attacking:
     14 x SBD-3 Dauntless diving from 2000'
              Naval Attack:  1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring xAK Yamadori Maru


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on 11th Division, at 113,156 (Koumac)

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid spotted at 18 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes


Allied aircraft
     P-39D Airacobra x 38


No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
     114 casualties reported
        Squads: 0 destroyed, 7 disabled
        Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 6 disabled
        Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
     Guns lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)



Aircraft Attacking:
     19 x P-39D Airacobra attacking from 100 feet
              Ground Attack:  1 x 500 lb GP Bomb
     19 x P-39D Airacobra attacking from 100 feet
              Ground Attack:  1 x 500 lb GP Bomb


[sm=00000506.gif][sm=00000007.gif][sm=fighting0045.gif]




Valgua -> RE: AI a little /too/ aggressive? (8/3/2009 8:07:43 PM)

The problem with unescorted troops must be solved. I can live with unescorted Japanese mechants, after all one of the biggest mistakes of the Empire during the war was precisely to not copy the English convoy technique from the war in the Atlantic. Unescorted amphibious operations, on the other hand, are a completely different matter. [:-]




Scott_USN -> RE: AI a little /too/ aggressive? (8/3/2009 8:18:22 PM)

Too bad it can't do a simple check before proceeding

TF Escorts?
Yes Proceed
No Don't Proceed.

Killing a division because of this weakness is sad but I never know until it is already over.




Walloc -> RE: AI a little /too/ aggressive? (8/3/2009 8:22:32 PM)

Im starting to get concerned about this behavior too. Im at end of Jan 42 now and AI has made several of these unescorted landings. To avoid spoiling im not gona say where, here.
Any how observing this pattern its been fairly easy to find ways to counter this even before they land. Even the places they been succesfull i chased off/sunk the merchants before any real forces has landed to its been a piece of cake to retake any "lost" territory fairly fast.

The real problem these landings is out side any air cover so it has no cost for me to counter these landings. Plus i get alot of free and effordless sinkings.

Kind regards,

Rasmus




Valgua -> RE: AI a little /too/ aggressive? (8/3/2009 8:28:05 PM)

I think that the unescorted landings are by far the greatest flaw in the new AI. It would be wonderful if it could be corrected with a patch, but I am not too optimistic. 




Andy Mac -> RE: AI a little /too/ aggressive? (8/3/2009 8:32:46 PM)

Its not really a patch issue its more a lack of escorts issue.

There are simply not enough ships to cover them all and a lot of ground to cover




Naskra -> RE: AI a little /too/ aggressive? (8/3/2009 8:33:34 PM)

I.ve had the AI land at Kobe in Jan '42. It didn't go well for them.




Scott_USN -> RE: AI a little /too/ aggressive? (8/3/2009 8:35:51 PM)

Well guess I will just have to have a personal rule for myself not to hurt the AI too badly in the South Pacific by wiping out TFs. But damned if it needs help elsewhere.




EUBanana -> RE: AI a little /too/ aggressive? (8/3/2009 8:36:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Its not really a patch issue its more a lack of escorts issue.

There are simply not enough ships to cover them all and a lot of ground to cover


I thought this might be the case - but some prudence might be in order... Koumac is a hell of a jump from Rabaul. I don't think a human player would do that, even one with Cojones.

If it was able to guess where the Allies were (Allied CVs were in action in the Coral Sea a couple of weeks earlier, so it could flag New Caledonia as 'risky' maybe), or prefer sticking to invasions within LBA range if in doubt, then that would be an improvement.




Valgua -> RE: AI a little /too/ aggressive? (8/3/2009 8:39:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Its not really a patch issue its more a lack of escorts issue.

There are simply not enough ships to cover them all and a lot of ground to cover


I realize that, but the logical alternative to not provide an escort to landing troops in enemy waters is to abort the amphibious operation, not to send it unescorted. That said, I am not a programmer and I assume that what I am talking about is difficult to put into practice.




Scott_USN -> RE: AI a little /too/ aggressive? (8/3/2009 8:40:00 PM)

I tried to hit Jolo for instance with a fast destroyer force the Celebe Sea had a big bad wolf pack waiting for me ;)

So it is not everywhere because the Surface fleet in Celebe just stomped me 200 miles from the landing force in Jolo




Andy Mac -> RE: AI a little /too/ aggressive? (8/3/2009 8:40:50 PM)

nm




oldman45 -> RE: AI a little /too/ aggressive? (8/3/2009 8:42:02 PM)

I have nailed several large TF's but in my games some have had BB's in covering forces. Also, have you noticed how fast the AI can dump off a division? I had a weak brigade take longer [X(]

If there is a routine that can be added so they at least add some CA's to groups over a certain number might be helpful.




Andy Mac -> RE: AI a little /too/ aggressive? (8/3/2009 8:42:56 PM)

Aborting is fine but what if the abort is PI ? 

If there is a time to attack with insuffuicient force its early doors - iots not such a huge issue for the allies as they have so many DD's but Japan is ALWAYs short of them




Andy Mac -> RE: AI a little /too/ aggressive? (8/3/2009 8:43:56 PM)

There is but if a CA is not available do you want the invasion to fail its a balance maybe its to far one way now but you all wanted a more aggressive AI [:D][:D]




Drakken -> RE: AI a little /too/ aggressive? (8/3/2009 8:47:34 PM)

Can the AI scripts be modified to slow down its conquests and prioritize them in order of importance? I have a feeling the Japanese AI attempts to conquer too many bases, a little too fast, at the expense of his main target: the DEI. And becauses these are so spread out and made around the same time, escorts become scarce.

After all, Rabaul and Kobe Island are both very, very secondary targets in Dec. 1941 compared to the PI and the DEI. I don't see why Japan should rush to take these useless little islands at the expense of conquering the PEI, and secure both the PI and Malaya away from the Allies. After all, these areas are to be the blood vessels of Japan's industrial force, not Rabaul.





Canoerebel -> RE: AI a little /too/ aggressive? (8/3/2009 8:51:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

It's gone and landed an entire division basically on its own, completely unsupported at Koumac. It's nearest base to the action is Rabaul (!).


Sounds like John 3rd is in command.




bstarr -> RE: AI a little /too/ aggressive? (8/3/2009 9:00:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

There is but if a CA is not available do you want the invasion to fail its a balance maybe its to far one way now but you all wanted a more aggressive AI [:D][:D]


I wonder if from a modding point of view, would deleting some of the excess covering forces near singapore give the extra ships needed to form covering forces elsewhere. I realize this is unhistoric, so it doesn't really help the overall problem; but it might be a temporary fix for a mod.




Andy Mac -> RE: AI a little /too/ aggressive? (8/3/2009 9:02:26 PM)

nm




Andy Mac -> RE: AI a little /too/ aggressive? (8/3/2009 9:03:13 PM)

I strongly suspect you should wait for the next set orf AI builds and see how that does




bstarr -> RE: AI a little /too/ aggressive? (8/3/2009 9:08:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

I strongly suspect you should wait for the next set orf AI builds and see how that does


lol. I guess I am starting to sound like a five year-old.




Scott_USN -> RE: AI a little /too/ aggressive? (8/3/2009 9:10:29 PM)

Yeah a little bit of a blind eye of AI moves will make for a much more exciting game. Up to the player of course, I was pleased to see the agression for sure.




Dixie -> RE: AI a little /too/ aggressive? (8/3/2009 9:16:19 PM)

The AI seems to flip between sensible levels of cover and what are, too me at least, bloody stupid moves.  It's on it's second attempt to take one of my major bases after the first one turned round 3 hexes out and went home [&:]  This time however it's brought BB and CVs to cover the invasion.  At the same time it's sent piddly little TFs out that are getting smacked about by a man with a rifle and a canoe [:D]

It's a bit strange to see a TF get so close to a base and then high tail it away for no obvious reason, I had a CV TF nearby but it wasn't in range for strikes until a day or two later after they chased down the enemy TF.  The second attack looks like it's going to fail on the beaches as they didn't send enough troops for the task. [8D] 




Q-Ball -> RE: AI a little /too/ aggressive? (8/3/2009 9:19:13 PM)

I will say the AI is doing a nice job with Subs so far.




Drakken -> RE: AI a little /too/ aggressive? (8/3/2009 9:22:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I will say the AI is doing a nice job with Subs so far.


Absolutely. In fact, I like the fact that the AI is more unpredictable and aggressive than in WITP. Surprise is a very nice element.

Now, if it could protect all its amphibious landing TFs with escorts or accompany them with SCTFs, even if it means slowing down the juggernaut schedule a bit, everything would be nigh-on perfect. [&o]




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