Fire command - show of hands? (Full Version)

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MarkShot -> Fire command - show of hands? (5/18/2009 8:31:27 PM)

Does anyone actually use this command in RDOA/HTTR/COTA? If so, for what?

I've never used it myself and my contention is that it confuses noobs who are used to games that heavily rely on player targeting.

Your thoughts?

Thanks.



Deerslayer -> RE: Fire command - show of hands? (5/18/2009 9:36:50 PM)

Never used it myself IIRC correctly and always wondered myself under what circumstances it was used.



James Sterrett -> RE: Fire command - show of hands? (5/19/2009 12:58:54 PM)

I've never used it and I have seen it confuse my students! [:)]



Tzar007 -> RE: Fire command - show of hands? (5/19/2009 2:23:17 PM)

I have used it a couple of time in HTTR in some specific situations (let's say desperate situations like when I was encircled) when I felt I was too weak to think about assaulting. I usually used that order with long range Flak or AT guns units with clear LOS which could fire from far enough. I did find it useful at that time to pin down advancing enemy units, but you need to think about it otherwise you won't use it.

In COTA, I might have used it in some of the Crete scenarios, but probably very seldom. A clear LOS over a long distance is usually an oxymoron in the Greece mainland, so I'm pretty sure I never used the Fire command in these scenarios. With the kind of ground the Ardennes is, I suspect it won't be of much use in BFTB.



JudgeDredd -> RE: Fire command - show of hands? (5/19/2009 3:23:07 PM)

I've used it a few times, but it kind of feels redundant. The AI does a good job of targeting the most menacing enemy.

I've never really read if there are any benefits in using it.



Prince of Eckmühl -> RE: Fire command - show of hands? (5/19/2009 3:53:18 PM)

This is one of the details of AA that makes me wonder what's going on "under the hood" of the game. What's a little scary is that Markshot doesn't completely understand it!

I use that command to try and coax units into focusing their fire on units that I particularly want to destroy. However, I notice that units which I take control of with a FIRE command will often still fire at targets other than the one which I have targeted. Other times, they do nothing at all.

However, what REALLY undermines FIRE as a game command/function is the ability of a target unit to move out from under it. This may just be a matter of the red tracer graphic not updating to the location of where the unit has moved,  but it really appears as though units continue to FIRE at what's now a vacated space, as can similarly occur with INDIRECT FIRE.

And this is yet another example of why I'm not sure about micro-managing units. Apart from placing units, perhaps even individually, in the right place at the right time, I'm not sure that attempting to override some of these game functions actually works. The obvious exception to my diffidence in this regard are massed-artillery barrages that can cause key enemy units to surrender without an enemy in sight.

Darned if I don't feel as though the more that I learn about these games, the less that I know! [;)]

PoE (aka ivanmoe)



MarkShot -> RE: Fire command - show of hands? (5/19/2009 6:00:03 PM)

PoE,

Your questions answered in the Mini-Guide Thread. Thanks.



06 Maestro -> RE: Fire command - show of hands? (5/19/2009 6:07:03 PM)

I seldom use it with line units, but still find it useful. There is a side benefit to having that order; when you issue it to a unit/HQ it will stop its current mission/orders. This can come in handy sometimes.

I make good use of the fire order when arty has a direct line of site. Not so much for any added effect, but to hammer units which are becoming a major threat to the gun positions.

On a somewhat related subject I would make a rough estimate that about 25% of bombard missions are controlled directly by myself. In some scenarios with reduced arty ammo I may triple that amount of micro management.



MarkShot -> RE: Fire command - show of hands? (5/19/2009 6:12:44 PM)

Aargh! A self confession of an exploit! I am on a campaign this release that exploits be closed or it is time for me to publish my MarkShot's Iron Man Rules for BFTB. (Coming AAR will conform to Iron Man Rules.)

Thanks for that one. I was unaware of it.



06 Maestro -> RE: Fire command - show of hands? (5/19/2009 6:58:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MarkShot

Aargh! A self confession of an exploit! I am on a campaign this release that exploits be closed or it is time for me to publish my MarkShot's Iron Man Rules for BFTB. (Coming AAR will conform to Iron Man Rules.)


[;)]Well, it's not really a bad exploit. Plans need to change once in a while. The time from that realization to a new plan being figured out should not be used going down a bad path.[;)]

quote:


Thanks for that one. I was unaware of it.


I stumbled upon this shortly after I first started playing CotA. I had a tendency to change my mind about my gret plans and found it tedious to keep hitting the delete key to back up. The first time I noticed that "fire" did the trick, it stuck in the noggin.



Prince of Eckmühl -> RE: Fire command - show of hands? (5/19/2009 7:01:41 PM)

quote:



Your questions answered in the Mini-Guide Thread.


Which mini-guide [&:]



Prince of Eckmühl -> RE: Fire command - show of hands? (5/19/2009 7:04:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro
There is a side benefit to having that order; when you issue it to a unit/HQ it will stop its current mission/orders. This can come in handy sometimes.


You can also "rope" a group of units and create the same result for all of them.



Mark71 -> RE: Fire command - show of hands? (5/19/2009 7:08:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

quote:



Your questions answered in the Mini-Guide Thread.


Which mini-guide [&:]



check the top message in the BFTB forum.



MarkShot -> RE: Fire command - show of hands? (5/19/2009 7:09:53 PM)

Ha ha ... the BFTB Mini-Guide. The HTTR and COTA are closed (not in a thread sense, but I won't be adding new content). Even if new HTTR and COTA questions come up, I will probably answer them in the BFTB guide.



Chad Harrison -> RE: Fire command - show of hands? (5/19/2009 10:40:07 PM)

As for the original question, I never use it. I would use it though if it could snap to a unit. In other words, order unit A to continue to attack unit B.



MarkShot -> RE: Fire command - show of hands? (5/19/2009 10:51:29 PM)

I see your point, but everything in the system focused on a map location and NOT other units.

This is why I don't like the fire command. Gamers coming from other systems think that they must managing targeting. Gamers are often confused by the fact that they are targeting a location (and only implicitly targeting what enemy might or might not be there).



GoodGuy -> RE: Fire command - show of hands? (5/20/2009 1:31:11 AM)

I use to issue the fire command to units in situations where avoiding a local enemy breakthrough may influence the outcome of the entire operation. I don't know if I'm just seeing things, and i surely don't know what's under the hood, but it seems like using the fire command makes a difference at times, which is sometimes odd, though.

Well, odd in in a way that a given unit should behave according to the aggro/fire rate settings determined by the user, but where the particular unit won't fire like a group of madmen (if set to DEFEND, for example), unless i use the fire command.

Example: HTTR, Nijmegen scenario, AT guns or INF guns set up as a chain of defensive perimeters along the main road next to the river leading up north to downtown Nijmegen:

Let's say enemy tanks approach these positions, they then will have to deal with my AT/gun units, and in situations where these enemy tanks make it to a spot near one of my units, I then order the unit to fire at the tank unit (with max aggro/ROF settings). This will make my unit fire AT rounds more often (red tracers), as opposed to cases where I had issued a defend order using the same aggro/ROF settings.
Another observation I made is, that units with a defend task would fire with reduced ROF (or sometimes rarely fire or not fire at all, although the ROF had been set to MAX), but they would keep up the fight longer than the units conducting a fire task in a similar situation, means they would retreat/route later.

It seems like the "fire"-units tend to retreat earlier, but they inflict (more) notable casualties (sometimes 25-50%) among the enemy tank units, a vital performance gain influencing the outcome of the operation in the sector.

Someone mentioned in this thread that it's usually not neccessary to use the FIRE command in COTA, due to the nature of the greek terrain (LOF/FOV conditions), I'd second that.



MarkShot -> RE: Fire command - show of hands? (5/20/2009 1:46:34 AM)

Well, it doesn't look like Fire will be going away.

Actually, I would like if I get some time to write a most common list of noob mistakes for CmdOps. Which would include the misconception that targeting is any way required to play.

Maybe MarkShot's Most Common Noob Mistakes (as last time I did the Top Tips)



James Sterrett -> RE: Fire command - show of hands? (5/20/2009 1:53:04 AM)

The #1 error I see is: Ordering each unit on the map individually and overloading the highest on-map HQ. (I make my students play at maximum orders delay. Once they see the light, they generally are quite pleased by the notion of a game that actively punishes micromanagement. [:)] )



GoodGuy -> RE: Fire command - show of hands? (5/20/2009 1:54:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarkShot

Maybe MarkShot's Most Common Noob Mistakes (as last time I did the Top Tips)

Well, I'd name it "Dos and Don'ts for New Players", as you shouldn't refer to new customers with the word "noob", that's counterproductive (j/k) - from a PR/marketing POV -, and it may be offensive [;)] (j/k)

(j/k = just kidding).



MarkShot -> RE: Fire command - show of hands? (5/20/2009 1:56:34 AM)

Yes, maybe we should draw up a list of Top Flubs.

It comes on a little white card with a big red circle & slash saying if you are Noob, then read this for your own safety and the lives of those whom you command! :)



GoodGuy -> RE: Fire command - show of hands? (5/20/2009 1:59:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MarkShot

[]... if you are Noob, then read this for your own safety and the lives of those whom you command! :)


Or like ... [:D] "READ this, if you're just another Lt. Dike!"



emerson -> RE: Fire command - show of hands? (5/20/2009 2:07:00 AM)

I sometimes use the fire command for anti-tank guns with HE and infantry guns for direct fire interdiction missions along known or suspected routes of enemy advance when I know the enemy must be advancing up a road in confined terrain especially when artillery assets are unavailable, out of range, or otherwise occupied.  



emerson -> RE: Fire command - show of hands? (5/25/2009 7:34:35 AM)

So, with regard to MarkShot's original question does anyone else use 'fire' for the same purpose as I describe above? It seems to me that the intention of the command is to direct flat trajectory HE firing units with LOS to target an area like one would with bombard. Considering that we don't target individual units the 'fire' command seems best left to the AI when it comes to small arms... Any thoughts? To be honest I have little proof of the effectiveness, though units moving through the direct fire seem to be weakend; just another facet of this game the seems to makes sense when applied from the real world? 



Deathtreader -> RE: Fire command - show of hands? (5/25/2009 11:31:17 PM)

Hi all,

I'm on the same page as you emerson......... and I've no proof of it's effectiveness either.
Certainly I've never noticed any (significant) increase in the yellow/red fire streaks but that needn't be a reliable indicator either. Maybe Arjuna could weigh in??
Would be a nice command for targetting units rather than an area on the map though........

Rob.[:)]



GoodGuy -> RE: Fire command - show of hands? (5/26/2009 8:34:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deathtreader

[].... and I've no proof of it's effectiveness either.
Certainly I've never noticed any (significant) increase in the yellow/red fire streaks but that needn't be a reliable indicator either.


I've seen a significant increase, (red tracers), when the command was issued to AT guns firing at enemy tank units, and at inf guns firing at enemy inf. I've even used this method for AA (40mm), heavy flak and arty units. Those heavy flak units are some evil tank busters, and they use to rock for a while if firing at enemy tanks (well, until they get shred to pieces by the tanks, hehee).

You can tell that the engine wasn't developed to simulate tank warfare, though.... I'd love to see the historic abilities of let's say tanks or 88mm flak implemented in the game:

If operated by experienced crews, 88mm-Flak units in North Africa could kill enemy tanks at ranges of up to 1800 meters. The Flak's optics/gun sights and gun specs actually allowed for scoring hits at that range.
Tiger tank crews practicing on shooting ranges were required to hit a given target with their 4th shot - at distances from 1300 meters (1421 yards) to 2000 meters (2187 yards), and could even hit a stationary target (i.e. artillery) at 2800 meters. Well, if they had a clear LOS... they then elevated the gun gradually (in 300 meters increments), to hit with the 3rd - 5th shot.

Anyway, maybe I'm just seeing things, but to me, it looked like it actually did make a difference, if enemy units were close enough (range rings) and if my units had a clear LOS. Sometimes, my units wouldn't start to fire (like madmen) before the enemy hit let's say a distance of 400 meters or even less, well according to the tracers at least. But it seems like some tracers aren't rendered for whatever reasons (ie. AA), because I came across situations where I "fired" at charging enemy units (with my AA unit), without any tracer being rendered, but with the enemy units retreating after a while. I could rule out the possibility that these enemy units may have received fire from other friendly units, as they were seperated, and there was no friendly arty mission available.



Prince of Eckmühl -> RE: Fire command - show of hands? (5/30/2009 1:38:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GoodGuy

You can tell that the engine wasn't developed to simulate tank warfare, though.... I'd love to see the historic abilities of let's say tanks or 88mm flak implemented in the game:

If operated by experienced crews, 88mm-Flak units in North Africa could kill enemy tanks at ranges of up to 1800 meters. The Flak's optics/gun sights and gun specs actually allowed for scoring hits at that range.
Tiger tank crews practicing on shooting ranges were required to hit a given target with their 4th shot - at distances from 1300 meters (1421 yards) to 2000 meters (2187 yards), and could even hit a stationary target (i.e. artillery) at 2800 meters. Well, if they had a clear LOS... they then elevated the gun gradually (in 300 meters increments), to hit with the 3rd - 5th shot.


This is almost off-topic, in the wrong forum, or something. Still, as to the substance of what GoodGuy is saying, I have to agree with him.

I make that comment because it appears that towed, unarmoured anti-tank guns are at a terrible disadvantage when engaged by any manner of anti-personnel fire, at any range, optimal, or otherwise. Conversely, weapons like the Flak 36 don't APPEAR to use their armour-piercing capability on enemy AFV until the range is within 1500m, or so.

The 88mm was the nemesis of the Matilda I/II. However, in CotA, its vulnerable to just about every anti-personnel weapon in the game, including those of the A12, at ranges well beyond those which the 88mm is programmed to shoot back. Because of this, the Flak 36 woefully under-performs in it's anti-tank role, even against vehicles armed with the 2-pounder.

If this has been rectified in BftB, then I salute you.[sm=Cool-049.gif]



simovitch -> RE: Fire command - show of hands? (8/30/2009 11:35:59 PM)

I thought for sure I posted on this thread... hmm. Goodguy's thread on IG's made me revisit it.

Anyway, I use this command quite a bit, mostly with the German IG's. It seems to be the only way to get some results from these guns besides being chewed up as cannon fodder. Even so it seems to be very selective when firing at a target you select; if the LOS is even slightly impaired then you will be lucky to see it lob 1 shell over a 10 minute period.

Either way, I'm suprised others don't use it as much. Personally, I don't trust the AI to pick all the best targets with all the best weapons (in-game use of the FlaK 88 is a good example) and I appreciate having some control.



Arjuna -> RE: Fire command - show of hands? (8/30/2009 11:58:37 PM)

Well actually, the use of supporting weapons has been improved with BFTB. They will drop off earlier and provide more fire support in the attack now.



Agema -> RE: Fire command - show of hands? (9/8/2009 7:50:10 PM)

I've never used the command. However, I presume you target a patch of ground.

If this is the case, an obvious use is firing at an area you believe the enemy may be in, but can't actually see (perhaps it's dark, or the unit is in cover). If you can supply some suppression, units that may be able to ambush or otherwise disrupt your activities could do less damage.



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