Aircraft vs Ships? (Full Version)

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ceyan -> Aircraft vs Ships? (4/8/2009 6:06:49 AM)

Alright, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the following supposed to be true:

Plane vs Ship with no escort = Dead ship

I mean, there is room for argument in a modern day scenario, but we've got lots of examples of that being true even if you ignore the numbers game.

However, to date, I've yet to actually experience that. I finally go so fed up that I calling up random scenarios and trying to kill fleets in the open. As an example, the trigger for my rant/question, I was doing the Crimean scenario out of the bank and the AI left five destroyers a couple hexes away from where I had stationed my German aircraft. Thinking I'd kill off a couple with no real penalty I sent 5 fighters and 3 divebombers after the stack. I came back without sinking a one and down 3 fighters and a divebomber. I probably would have chalked it up to chance, if I hadn't tried WaW earlier and lost 5 levelbombers, 3 Carrier air, 4 divebombers and 6 fighters trying to kill the Kriegsmarine and initial Wolfpack stack off the British Isles. Not to mention countless other examples in past battles. Its getting to the point where I am actively avoiding playing any scenarios with sea hexes simply because I have never been able to achieve anything you could even twist in a definition of success in a aircraft vs ship fight.

So do I just have the worst luck ever, am I wrong in my assumption of how the combat mechanics are supposed to work, or what?



explorer2 -> RE: Aircraft vs Ships? (4/8/2009 3:10:44 PM)

Your rant is the primary reason I first undertook the WaW Revised project.
I've spent a lot of time trying to balance air/navy in WaW Revised & early reports of beta testing show promising results.

Make sure when you're thinking of results, you're comparing like units. Cruisers are very strong vs air, and as a general rule, the tech level of a unit has a significant impact, as well as their XP, AP, Readiness, and morale.
I've seen some very unexpected results sometimes, but often it's caused by differences in unit's factors, not their composition. I saw a group of carrier air which should not be too strong vs. infantry totallywipe out 50 infantry once. Upon closer inspection, the infantry were brand spanking new with no XP.

So if you'd like, give a try at WaW Revised vs 1i beta or later (should be posted in next day or two) and let me know what you think about the air/ship values (remember to read the Briefing carefully because values have changed)



srndac -> RE: Aircraft vs Ships? (4/8/2009 3:34:02 PM)

I gave up on using the planes against ships right after my first naval game.
IMHO the only ships that can be sunk by planes in 'vanilla' AT are cargoships and submarines.

I still use aircraft carriers though - as fighter cover for my ships and beach-heads. And in one game I used them as mobile platforms for strategic bombing of the enemy cities. [X(]

I could say that the Bombur's mod was for me what WaW was for explorer2 - a welcoming refreshment. Seeing my first fleet carrier with 3 torpedo-bombers annihilate the enemy's superior fleet brought a VERY warm feeling to my heart ... [:D]
thanks Bombur! [&o]

cheers!
srndac



Bombur -> RE: Aircraft vs Ships? (4/10/2009 12:43:17 AM)

Thank you, srndac. I was actually fearing that BB´s were still very hard to be sunk under Bombur mod. What is your impression?
And btw, are you using the standard mod or the AI compatible one?



srndac -> RE: Aircraft vs Ships? (4/10/2009 1:12:00 PM)

@Bombur
Actually, that event took place while still on v0.30 of your mod. (I was enthusiastic even then)
BTW - I started the AI compatible mod a few days ago - and I see you still haven't changed the movement rates. ;-)

cheers!
srndac



Bombur -> RE: Aircraft vs Ships? (4/10/2009 8:50:37 PM)

Eeeerrrr...right...thank you for reminding me about this feature....



srndac -> RE: Aircraft vs Ships? (4/11/2009 12:25:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bombur

Eeeerrrr...right...thank you for reminding me about this feature....


I'm sorry for being such a pain in the a$& - but someone has to point out the errors as well - besides, your mod is already AWESOME anyway - and when it's done, it'll be LEGENDARY.

So - keep up the good work Bombur!

cheers
srndac



Bombur -> RE: Aircraft vs Ships? (4/11/2009 11:09:51 PM)

Thank you, srndac. I´ve just fixed the mov rates.



seille -> RE: Aircraft vs Ships? (4/12/2009 12:27:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: srndac
I gave up on using the planes against ships right after my first naval game.
IMHO the only ships that can be sunk by planes in 'vanilla' AT are cargoships and submarines.



Sorry, but this is simply not true. The only ships which are very hard to sink
(as a result of their incredible flak fire) are cruisers. All other ship types are not really
a problem to sink with the right planes. Of course you should not expect a success when you
send only one plane per ship. This won´t work mostly.
3-4 planes per ship and everything will be fine. In case the target has some cruisers you´ll need
more attack strength or simply forget such a air attack (too expensive...)

I talk about vanilla version and not about any special mods or scenarios.
There things might be totally different.



srndac -> RE: Aircraft vs Ships? (4/12/2009 2:49:11 PM)

seille, I was almost done with the reply to your post when I noticed something strange and went back to read the first post of this thread - to be more specific: the 'ship with no escort' part. I haven't noticed that the first time, and now I'm sorry.

The fact is, most of the AI countries, and any decent human player will build an air force as soon as possible. And the cruiser is the best ship to deal with planes. So the most natural thing in the world (to me, at least) is to give my cargoships and battleships cruiser escort. It's stupid not to.

Unless of course at the beggining where you have to expand quickly and have no time to give your cargoships escort. Or when you send out wolfpacks - who need their hide skils to survive and so can't afford to have other ships with them. Which is what I was reffering to before.

So, seille, I agree with you - ships unescorted by cruisers are dead in an air attack.
But then - how many players are there who don't give cruiser escort to their ships?
And that makes air attacks difficult - even without fighter escort.

cheers!



seille -> RE: Aircraft vs Ships? (4/12/2009 3:12:57 PM)

The part of your posting i quoted made me thinking you think ships in general are
hard to sink. Just wanted to correct this. [:)]



srndac -> RE: Aircraft vs Ships? (4/12/2009 4:05:14 PM)

Hell no!
I have sunk enough AI cruisers and battleships (former with subs and latter with divebombers) to know that.

It's funny how AI never seems to build Destroyers, though. The only real threat to my Submarines in random games are aircraft.
AI also never seems to give Cruiser escort to the Battleships. Okay, almost never.
So sinking those ships isn't all that hard.

cheers!



Twotribes -> RE: Aircraft vs Ships? (4/12/2009 4:21:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: srndac

Hell no!
I have sunk enough AI cruisers and battleships (former with subs and latter with divebombers) to know that.

It's funny how AI never seems to build Destroyers, though. The only real threat to my Submarines in random games are aircraft.
AI also never seems to give Cruiser escort to the Battleships. Okay, almost never.
So sinking those ships isn't all that hard.

cheers!


Probably because the Computer seems to have a problem combining certain types together. Naval seems to be one. It will put 100 air craft in a single formation but can not seem to sail destroyers from one city, cruisers from another to the Battleship city and combine them.



srndac -> RE: Aircraft vs Ships? (4/12/2009 6:08:57 PM)

@Twotribes

Yep, that's something that Vic should definitely change - it's things like that that make AI a walkover.
As another example: I break through the AI lines and show up near a nice little town with 10 rifles in it, and AI flies in 200 planes (yep - that's 200 folks! - 160 fighters, 40 divebombers) and seriously expects me not to take it ... [:D]
Or - even better - one AI city on a lake had 15-ish battleships, 25-ish cruisers and 20 rifles with some mortars and machineguns in it - against my 5 units with 50 stack-points each ... you call it defense - 'coz I sure won't. [:-]

cheers!



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