Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! (Full Version)

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Enforcer -> Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! (3/13/2008 7:16:15 AM)

I read a post earlier about GAMEY tactics....
One of the CLASSIC tactics an ALLIED player does is run and hide his carriers until late '43 when he can overwhelm a japanese player and this is just WAY gamey.... America as a country would have stood for this.. hiding while men were dying and land being taken!!

I just thank god Andy did not do play this way and played pretty realistic.. When Sinjen and I were the Allies .. We were
planning offensive operation on Dec 8th.. we actually made our opponent resign in mid '42 because all his CV's were sunk or 6 months in drydock along with all BB's.. Force Z and the US Pac Fleet ruled the waves! DEI, Singapore, Rangoon, Rabaul never fell and the phils were already preping to recieve reinforcement.

So I will refuse to play an Allied player (if I know he will turtle for 2 to 3 years) because the American population just would not stand for that... the doolittle raid is an example of that...

No matter if Sijen or I are Allied or Axis we cannot do that!!




Terminus -> RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! (3/13/2008 10:29:07 AM)

[8|]




Panzerjaeger Hortlund -> RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! (3/13/2008 11:11:05 AM)

wtf does that have to do with AE?




cantona2 -> RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! (3/13/2008 12:07:32 PM)

as PJH has said wtf has this got to do with AE ffs




Zebedee -> RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! (3/22/2008 2:35:54 AM)

I suppose increasing the likelihood of a Japanese points victory if the Brave Sir Robin tactic is taken too far would push an Allied player to actually fight every once and a while.

But that's human vs human play. The AI fights too much and needs to learn when to retreat more often! I often think that vanilla games should cater for the AI player and the mods cater for human vs human balance.




Gem35 -> RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! (3/22/2008 4:07:25 AM)

too much caffeine there, Enforcer or did you post in the wrong forum ?




bradfordkay -> RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! (3/23/2008 7:19:57 AM)

Could a moderator move this thread so that some of us won't feel guilty for responding?





niceguy2005 -> RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! (3/23/2008 6:43:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Enforcer

I read a post earlier about GAMEY tactics....
One of the CLASSIC tactics an ALLIED player does is run and hide his carriers until late '43 when he can overwhelm a japanese player and this is just WAY gamey.... America as a country would have stood for this.. hiding while men were dying and land being taken!!

I just thank god Andy did not do play this way and played pretty realistic.. When Sinjen and I were the Allies .. We were
planning offensive operation on Dec 8th.. we actually made our opponent resign in mid '42 because all his CV's were sunk or 6 months in drydock along with all BB's.. Force Z and the US Pac Fleet ruled the waves! DEI, Singapore, Rangoon, Rabaul never fell and the phils were already preping to recieve reinforcement.

So I will refuse to play an Allied player (if I know he will turtle for 2 to 3 years) because the American population just would not stand for that... the doolittle raid is an example of that...

No matter if Sijen or I are Allied or Axis we cannot do that!!

I completely disagree that this is "gamey". There is no advantage of game mechanics being exploited.

That said, I do think it is a strategy inconsistent with the mindset of the Allies. There is no way Nimitz, Halsey or MacArthur were going to hide. Further, it is a misconception that the Allied carriers can't match the Japanese 1 for 1 (once the zero bonus has expired). In my games I seek to engage the Japanese CV on equal terms as early as possible. The operative word there is equal terms...there's no way I'm going to baited into a CV battle on terms that are unfavorable.




Yava -> RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! (3/23/2008 7:00:54 PM)

As Niceguy says no one is going to commit a suicide... I never fought a CV battle knowing I stand no chances against the enemy. if it was a sneaky trap and I felt for it .... well things happen but never conciously have I engaged the enemy knowing that it's suicide and I wouldn't call it gamey... [8|]




bradfordkay -> RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! (3/23/2008 10:04:35 PM)

I'm with Niceguy and Yava here... I am not going to send my forces into a situation where they will be overwhelmed unless I believe that the payoff is greater than the cost. What I find to be gamey are folks who will throw away their assets on a whim, because they're only 0's and 1's and thus it doesn't really matter if you lose them.

The original post seems to me to be rather like having your schoolyard rival taunting you "Awww, c'mon...what are you, chicken?" knowing that the headmaster is walking up behind you, ready to meet out punishment to whoever he sees throwing a punch...




Dixie -> RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! (3/23/2008 10:13:02 PM)

Agreed [:)]  What is wrong with conserving your forces until a favourable time to strike back?  I'm not going to hide away forever, but neither am I going to sail right up to the KB in early 1942...




USS America -> RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! (3/24/2008 4:58:25 AM)

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a Brave Sir Robin strategy in early to mid '42.  The risk for the Allied player is that Japan will overrun everything.  That should be the Japanese player's goal if the Allied player does not offer battle. 

I get a huge kick out of people that insist playing a GAME, instead of recreating historical mistakes, is "gamey."  [:D]


(OK, maybe I'm a bit of a tainted witness on this topic [;)])




Mynok -> RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! (3/24/2008 6:00:50 PM)


Highly tainted......[:D]




BrucePowers -> RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! (3/24/2008 6:32:00 PM)

It doesn't seem to be bothering you.[:D] Also he has done a fair job of keeping Kuching closed[:)]




niceguy2005 -> RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! (3/24/2008 7:10:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

I'm with Niceguy and Yava here... I am not going to send my forces into a situation where they will be overwhelmed unless I believe that the payoff is greater than the cost. What I find to be gamey are folks who will throw away their assets on a whim, because they're only 0's and 1's and thus it doesn't really matter if you lose them.

The original post seems to me to be rather like having your schoolyard rival taunting you "Awww, c'mon...what are you, chicken?" knowing that the headmaster is walking up behind you, ready to meet out punishment to whoever he sees throwing a punch...

I have to agree very much with Bradfordkay. Historically the Allies were careful in the use of their carriers. They only committed them to battle when there was something strategically important at stake...too me this is the right doctrine considering that the Allies KNEW that they were still ramping up. That is the rules of engagement I use. That said I still wouldn't risk my carriers even for an important battle unless I felt that they were going into a fight that was at least close to even.





ny59giants -> RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! (3/24/2008 7:39:32 PM)

If the Americans lose 2 CVs early to mid '42, it really puts you into a bind of what you can do offensively until they are close to their respawn dates. Hindsight is great when you play a game like WitP. If the Japanese player can have a "Midway" come out in their favor, the Allied player is on his heals until later '43 or later. So a careful use of them is prudent.




niceguy2005 -> RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! (3/24/2008 8:33:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

If the Americans lose 2 CVs early to mid '42, it really puts you into a bind of what you can do offensively until they are close to their respawn dates. Hindsight is great when you play a game like WitP. If the Japanese player can have a "Midway" come out in their favor, the Allied player is on his heals until later '43 or later. So a careful use of them is prudent.

Certainly its tough if the Allies lose CVs and Japan does not. However, I agree with the above poster that the only way to really stop Japan from rolling across the map is to put up a fight.

In my recent game with the AI, in March 42 I traded Yorktown and Hermes for Zuikaku, Shokaku, Hiryu, Soryu, Akagi. Shoho was lost to LBA in the same battle. The Allies had Yorktown, Saratoga, Big E, Lexington, Indomitable and Hermes at the battle. Lexington still was flying Buffalos.

Japan's expansion is effectively done as of the end of March.




aphrochine -> RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! (3/24/2008 8:48:57 PM)

I dont get the feeling that anyone has really addressed the OPs issue.  That being the classic turtle strategy where a player sits back, loads up on defensive strong points, and then powers up overwhelming numbers.  While lame and very ahistorical for the allies in pto, this is a valid strategy against newer players in nearly every strategy game in existance....but quite honestly, its flawed.  If you execute a turtle strat, you are betting that your opponent is newbish and does not know how to defeat it with their knowledge of game mechanics, or lack thereof.  You are completely and totally giving your opponent initiative+time+space.  Do it, and you may win against a newer player who cant crack your nut in time, but not a skilled veteran.

The OP is griping about this strategy, and while I'm still new to witp, I'm not new to the frustrations of turtling.  Those who gripe about turtles usually lack a strong enough skill in the game's mechanics to overcome the strategy.  Granted there are games, through design flaw, where it becomes difficult or impossible to defeat a turtle strat (aok vanilla for example), but usually it is beatable; it just requires a few tips and a pat on the butt from a seasoned veteran.

I think the point of this thread could be to share key strategies and tactics for a newer Jap player to overcome said allied strategy.




niceguy2005 -> RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! (3/24/2008 8:55:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: aphrochine

I dont get the feeling that anyone has really addressed the OPs issue. That being the classic turtle strategy where a player sits back, loads up on defensive strong points, and then powers up overwhelming numbers. While lame and very ahistorical for the allies in pto, this is a valid strategy against newer players in nearly every strategy game in existance....but quite honestly, its flawed. If you execute a turtle strat, you are betting that your opponent is newbish and does not know how to defeat it with their knowledge of game mechanics, or lack thereof. You are completely and totally giving your opponent initiative+time+space. Do it, and you may win against a newer player who cant crack your nut in time, but not a skilled veteran.

The OP is griping about this strategy, and while I'm still new to witp, I'm not new to the frustrations of turtling. Those who gripe about turtles usually lack a strong enough skill in the game's mechanics to overcome the strategy. Granted there are games, through design flaw, where it becomes difficult or impossible to defeat a turtle strat (aok vanilla for example), but usually it is beatable; it just requires a few tips and a pat on the butt from a seasoned veteran.

I think the point of this thread could be to share key strategies and tactics for a newer Jap player to overcome said allied strategy.

Well said, but the tactic to defeat this strategy is to take away the hiding places. Short of this there's no way to defeat the allied production machine (which all occurs off map).




steverodgers80 -> RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! (3/24/2008 8:59:11 PM)

Having the intel on what they were doing was a bit of an advantage, how would Nimitz have reacted if he didnt have the intel. dont forget the rampart paranoia about a west coast invasion




aphrochine -> RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! (3/24/2008 9:36:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005
Well said, but the tactic to defeat this strategy is to take away the hiding places. Short of this there's no way to defeat the allied production machine (which all occurs off map).


So if you havent forced a victory by the end of '42, its over because there is no defeating Allied production??




niceguy2005 -> RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! (3/24/2008 9:42:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: aphrochine


quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005
Well said, but the tactic to defeat this strategy is to take away the hiding places. Short of this there's no way to defeat the allied production machine (which all occurs off map).


So if you havent forced a victory by the end of '42, its over because there is no defeating Allied production??

For the most part, yes. I mean how many CV/CVL do the Allies get in 44/45? How big was Japan's entire fleet?

Don't mistake my post with saying the game is pointless. It's just that Japan is going to lose, make no mistake. The fun in playing the game is determining how and where the allied victory will occur.




Charbroiled -> RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! (3/24/2008 9:50:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aphrochine

I dont get the feeling that anyone has really addressed the OPs issue.  That being the classic turtle strategy where a player sits back, loads up on defensive strong points, and then powers up overwhelming numbers.  While lame and very ahistorical for the allies in pto, this is a valid strategy against newer players in nearly every strategy game in existance....but quite honestly, its flawed.  If you execute a turtle strat, you are betting that your opponent is newbish and does not know how to defeat it with their knowledge of game mechanics, or lack thereof.  You are completely and totally giving your opponent initiative+time+space.  Do it, and you may win against a newer player who cant crack your nut in time, but not a skilled veteran.

The OP is griping about this strategy, and while I'm still new to witp, I'm not new to the frustrations of turtling.  Those who gripe about turtles usually lack a strong enough skill in the game's mechanics to overcome the strategy.  Granted there are games, through design flaw, where it becomes difficult or impossible to defeat a turtle strat (aok vanilla for example), but usually it is beatable; it just requires a few tips and a pat on the butt from a seasoned veteran.

I think the point of this thread could be to share key strategies and tactics for a newer Jap player to overcome said allied strategy.


I think the "turtle" strategy (aka "Brave Sir Robin") is a creation more from the type of opponent you are playing then a "prefered tactic". At the start of the game, the Japanese player (especially "veteran players") has the advantage of knowing where every allied unit starts the game and what the allied capabilities are. IMO, this is one of the biggest reasons the Japanese player has a tendency to move faster than IRL. When the Japanese play "Blitzkrieg in the Pacific", there is not much the allied player can do to stop him. The Japanese player playing in this fashion will usually mass everything to go after those "non-historic" targets, and the allied player has a choice of running away, or to stand and fight and risk losing everything which will then allow Japan to take more "non-historic" bases early in the war.

If the Japanese player would slow down to a more historic pace, I think you would see less of the "turtle" strategy and would see more smaller skirmishes.




Canoerebel -> RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! (3/24/2008 10:11:49 PM)

I'm sure Allied players would be happy to use their CVs as was done in the war (committing two or three at a time on raids against the Marshalls, or to try to blunt a Japanese offensive aka Battle of the Coral Sea) if the Japanese player was also using his CVs historically (committing just a handful in Coral Sea or Battle of Eastern Solomons or Midway).  But in the game, unlike in real life, the Jap player usually masses his CVs with devastating results.  The Allied player would be stupid to commit his CVs against the massed KB.  So both players are playing a-historically.  So what?




niceguy2005 -> RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! (3/24/2008 10:22:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I'm sure Allied players would be happy to use their CVs as was done in the war (committing two or three at a time on raids against the Marshalls, or to try to blunt a Japanese offensive aka Battle of the Coral Sea) if the Japanese player was also using his CVs historically (committing just a handful in Coral Sea or Battle of Eastern Solomons or Midway). But in the game, unlike in real life, the Jap player usually masses his CVs with devastating results. The Allied player would be stupid to commit his CVs against the massed KB. So both players are playing a-historically. So what?

If the Japanese player masses his CVs the Allied player should do the same, combining UK and US CVs and prepare them to counter the Japanese advance where ever it occurs. Put Halsey and Spraunce onboard and attack wherever the air space is at least neutral. As the Allies all you need to do is take out 3 or more IJN CVs. LBA and superior Allied production will take care of the rest.

The MOST dangerous thing in this game for an Allied player is an unchecked KB.




Charbroiled -> RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! (3/24/2008 10:38:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I'm sure Allied players would be happy to use their CVs as was done in the war (committing two or three at a time on raids against the Marshalls, or to try to blunt a Japanese offensive aka Battle of the Coral Sea) if the Japanese player was also using his CVs historically (committing just a handful in Coral Sea or Battle of Eastern Solomons or Midway). But in the game, unlike in real life, the Jap player usually masses his CVs with devastating results. The Allied player would be stupid to commit his CVs against the massed KB. So both players are playing a-historically. So what?

If the Japanese player masses his CVs the Allied player should do the same, combining UK and US CVs and prepare them to counter the Japanese advance where ever it occurs. Put Halsey and Spraunce onboard and attack wherever the air space is at least neutral. As the Allies all you need to do is take out 3 or more IJN CVs. LBA and superior Allied production will take care of the rest.

The MOST dangerous thing in this game for an Allied player is an unchecked KB.


Early in the war, you would have to have a good idea where the KB is and what is it's next target in order to do this. Plus, if the Japanese player kept his CVs in range of his Betty's, chances are, the allied CVs will become fish shelters.

A favorite tactic of one of my opponents is to mass his invasion fleet, 90% of his CVs, and his surface fleet in one hex as it moves to the target hex (this is April 42). Any land base planes I send out gets crushed against his cap and AA to the point where I usually don't have enough planes to launch more then one or two strikes. Any CV TF I send gets picked apart by the numerous Kates and Val. Any CV strike I launch has the same result as my land base strikes. If he can keep the range between his and my CV TF to 4 or 5, I'm toast. Plus, he puts just about every Nell and Betty he has on the closest size 3 or 4 AF (maybe even a size 2 sometimes). Not much my CV TF can do against a Betty strike of 300 planes.[X(]




aphrochine -> RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! (3/24/2008 10:44:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I'm sure Allied players would be happy to use their CVs as was done in the war (committing two or three at a time on raids against the Marshalls, or to try to blunt a Japanese offensive aka Battle of the Coral Sea) if the Japanese player was also using his CVs historically (committing just a handful in Coral Sea or Battle of Eastern Solomons or Midway).  But in the game, unlike in real life, the Jap player usually masses his CVs with devastating results.  The Allied player would be stupid to commit his CVs against the massed KB.  So both players are playing a-historically.  So what?



I was under the impression that the Japanese only really seperated the KB once, to support the invasion of PM. Those CVs where damaged after that and couldnt make it to Midway, and after Midway, the KB just didnt exist in its traditional sense.

Do SigInt reports help provide information that could lead to a Midway style ambush?? I've only begun to pay closer attention to them, and still only a couple months into my first campaign.

I guess both players playing ahistorically isnt much of a problem, if keeping the KB together is ahistoric. Given Charbroiled's comments above it looks like the brave sir robin, is a result of KB usage.

...bummer.




Mark VII -> RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! (3/24/2008 10:48:36 PM)

Very well said Charbroiled! When the Japanese player plays "Blitzkrieg in the Pacific" and starts making landings 600-900 miles behind the Allied lines with no air cover(because he knows there is nothing to stop him) and then transfers bunches of Betty's into his new base, there is not much the Allied player can do but run away.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charbroiled


I think the "turtle" strategy (aka "Brave Sir Robin") is a creation more from the type of opponent you are playing then a "prefered tactic". At the start of the game, the Japanese player (especially "veteran players") has the advantage of knowing where every allied unit starts the game and what the allied capabilities are. IMO, this is one of the biggest reasons the Japanese player has a tendency to move faster than IRL. When the Japanese play "Blitzkrieg in the Pacific", there is not much the allied player can do to stop him. The Japanese player playing in this fashion will usually mass everything to go after those "non-historic" targets, and the allied player has a choice of running away, or to stand and fight and risk losing everything which will then allow Japan to take more "non-historic" bases early in the war.

If the Japanese player would slow down to a more historic pace, I think you would see less of the "turtle" strategy and would see more smaller skirmishes.






aphrochine -> RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! (3/24/2008 10:57:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Charbroiled

A favorite tactic of one of my opponents is to mass his invasion fleet, 90% of his CVs, and his surface fleet in one hex as it moves to the target hex (this is April 42). Any land base planes I send out gets crushed against his cap and AA to the point where I usually don't have enough planes to launch more then one or two strikes. Any CV TF I send gets picked apart by the numerous Kates and Val. Any CV strike I launch has the same result as my land base strikes. If he can keep the range between his and my CV TF to 4 or 5, I'm toast. Plus, he puts just about every Nell and Betty he has on the closest size 3 or 4 AF (maybe even a size 2 sometimes). Not much my CV TF can do against a Betty strike of 300 planes.[X(]




If you where flying strikes against the KB to purposes of engaging the CAP, wouldnt the presence of such a large CAP pull every available fighter for escort duty?? I thought I read somewhere that anticipated CAP effected how strong the pull was for escorts. P-40's have a range of 5, wouldnt it be possible to mass up 200+ P-40s against that zero cap?? If so, would a 1-1 fighter battle in mid-42 with 60+ exp P-40s be sapping enough on the Zero's pilot pool to force the KB to consider pulling back?




Canoerebel -> RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! (3/24/2008 11:10:51 PM)

The Japs seldom if ever massed CVs after Pearl Harbor.  It was always a division here, a division there.  That's one reason the Allies were able to deploy their CVs into harm's way - that and Magic and boldness.  Had the Japs massed CVs, many battles would have been much different - imagine massed Jap CVs at Midway (instead of sending a division to the Aleutians) or at Coral Sea, or at San Juan Islands, or at Eastern Solomons.  It didn't happen and the Japs paid for it.

Midway is the most intriguing "what if," because I think the Allies would have committed what they had even in the face of overwhelming odds.  What would have happened at Midway had the Japs lost 4 CVs and the Allies 3 or something like that?

In the game, both sides may play a-historically, but it's within the realm of reason for the Japs to mass and the Allies to "Sir Robin." 




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