AE Map, Base, Economic Issues (Full Version)

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Andrew Brown -> AE Map, Base, Economic Issues (12/8/2007 4:28:54 AM)

Hi all,

I am starting this thread as a place for any questions regarding the following part of the upcoming WitP Admiral's Edition:


  • The map.
  • Bases.
  • Production.


Questions and comments invited! I will do my best to answer any questions.

Andrew




Brady -> RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread (12/8/2007 4:30:30 AM)

Coal?

Light Industry?

Will Suplys still move across water between bases if their close enough like in WiTP?




Nomad -> RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread (12/8/2007 4:30:48 AM)

Yay, AB is here and has his thread started. You will have lots of questions soon.




el cid again -> RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread (12/8/2007 4:41:16 AM)

Is the fundamental map structure the same in the sense that present art and pwhex files can be used?

Was an off map movement system implemented? If so, what are the entry/exit points?

Was any sort of pwhex editor created? Will existing pwhex editors work?




Mike Solli -> RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread (12/8/2007 4:45:07 AM)

Andrew, since resource and oil hexes no longer produce supplies and fuel, where do they come from?  I read that there will be refineries, but what else?




ctangus -> RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread (12/8/2007 4:58:32 AM)

Ooh - I've got a zillion questions - well 5 for now & maybe more later. You might not be able to answer them all yet...

1. What are the new terrain types that are implemented and what are their effects?

2. There seem to be new communication lines (e.g. minor & major roads). Can you list them & describe their effect one ground & supply movement?

3. From what I've seen AE is more based on CHS than stock. Have changes been made to make oil, not resources, the limiting factor for the Japanese economy again?

4. Can you explain exactly how "Light Industry" and "Oil Refinery" work? E.g., what do they require in terms of oil/resources and what do they produce in terms of fuel/supply?

5. Any changes to how aircraft factories upgrade?




KDonovan -> RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread (12/8/2007 5:00:10 AM)

will some rivers be navigatable by Warships?




jwilkerson -> RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread (12/8/2007 5:10:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Is the fundamental map structure the same in the sense that present art and pwhex files can be used?

Was an off map movement system implemented? If so, what are the entry/exit points?

Was any sort of pwhex editor created? Will existing pwhex editors work?


Well I think Andrew has to work this weekend - hopefully he can give more thorough answer later but I know a bit about this so I will jump in.

The new pwhexE.dat is different. Not interchangeable. Data stored about each hex is different format. I'm not aware of any existing pwhex editors but they will not work for AE without modification.

Yes there is an off map movement system, let's wait for Andrew to explain the details.

Oh and no present art will not work. There are about twice as many panels now because of the change to 40 n.m. hexes.





jwilkerson -> RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread (12/8/2007 5:10:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KDonovan

will some rivers be navigatable by Warships?



Yes.




MineSweeper -> RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread (12/8/2007 5:11:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson


quote:

ORIGINAL: MineSweeper

Any new Weather related changes ?...Typhoons....Monsoons.


No unfortunately. We had hopes. And we even had a real world weather guy 2stepper signed up to help us at one point but - long story short - didn't happen. But I think some aspects did get pulled out of the code and into the pwhexE.dat file. Andrew is best to answer these questions over on the map thread.



AB, any info on this.....Thx




Andrew Brown -> RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread (12/8/2007 5:14:21 AM)

before I start trying to answer questions, please note that my time will be very limited for another 7-8 hours or so. Please be patient.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady

Coal?


There are no new resource types. There are still only "resources" and "oil".

We briefly considered adding more, but for every one added there would have been a huge amount of added work and in-game complexity, so we stayed with the current ones only.

quote:

Light Industry?


There is a new "Light Industry" device. This device takes resource points as input and generates supply points as output. Because of this, manpower points no longer require Resource points as input, and HI no longer generate supply either - it is only generated by LI, and Refineries (representing fuel used by land units and aircraft).

Also - Resource centres no longer generate supply points. You have to take the resources to the LI centres to create supply points.

quote:

Will Suplys still move across water between bases if their close enough like in WiTP?


I don't think that this has been changed.

Andrew




Andrew Brown -> RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread (12/8/2007 5:21:28 AM)

Hi el cid,

quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Is the fundamental map structure the same in the sense that present art and pwhex files can be used?


No, it is completely different. There are some new things that have been added to the map data.

quote:

Was an off map movement system implemented? If so, what are the entry/exit points?


Yes, there is an off-map movement system. Only the Allies can use it. The bases that have been included are: Abadan, Aden, Mombasa, Capetown, "Soviet Union" and "Almaty" (both land only), "Canada", "US East Coast", two bases in Panama, Port Stanley and the UK (which can only be reached from other off-map bases).

quote:

Was any sort of pwhex editor created? Will existing pwhex editors work?


The existing ones will not work, and I don't think there are any plans to release one at this time.

Andrew




Andrew Brown -> RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread (12/8/2007 5:23:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Andrew, since resource and oil hexes no longer produce supplies and fuel, where do they come from? I read that there will be refineries, but what else?


I will try to provide some more details later but the basics are:

Refineries take oil as input and create fuel as well as some supplies.

Light Industry take Resources as input and generate supplies.

Andrew




Knavey -> RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread (12/8/2007 5:40:55 AM)

Will there be production for the Allies much like there is for the Japanese right now?




Andrew Brown -> RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread (12/8/2007 5:42:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ctangus

Ooh - I've got a zillion questions - well 5 for now & maybe more later. You might not be able to answer them all yet...

1. What are the new terrain types that are implemented and what are their effects?


Added are (with defence modifiers):

Rough (x2)
Forest/Jungle+Rough (x3)
Desert+Rough (x2)
Sand Desert (x3)
Tundra (x2)
Tropical Mountain (x3)
Light Urban (x2)
Icefield (impassable)

Forest and Jungle are now separate, but are identical in game terms (the art is different). Urban has been split into Light (x2) and Heavy (x4) Urban.

Tundra and Sand Desert terrain types are similar to Swamp (slow movement).

quote:

2. There seem to be new communication lines (e.g. minor & major roads). Can you list them & describe their effect one ground & supply movement?


Railway has been split into Major and Minor railway. The latter is slower than the former.

Road types are Main Road and Secondary Road. There are no Trails any more, except that railway lines act as a slow road type similar to the old Trails speed wise (representing the ability for LCUs to follow railway lines on "foot").

Movement along "Secondary" roads is between the movement rates of the old "Road" and "Trail" types.

quote:

3. From what I've seen AE is more based on CHS than stock. Have changes been made to make oil, not resources, the limiting factor for the Japanese economy again?


I definitely wouldn't say that AE is based on CHS, but given that some of the people (but certainly not all!) working on it were also contributors to CHS in the past, there are bound to be some similar influences.

I am aware of the Resources issue for CHS, so I will be taking a look at that for the AE.

quote:

4. Can you explain exactly how "Light Industry" and "Oil Refinery" work? E.g., what do they require in terms of oil/resources and what do they produce in terms of fuel/supply?


I will try to provide some more details when I have time, but there are some basic answers above.

quote:

5. Any changes to how aircraft factories upgrade?


Not that I am aware of.

Andrew




Andrew Brown -> RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread (12/8/2007 5:43:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MineSweeper

AB, any info on this.....Thx



To put it simply, there hasn't been time to work on the weather system. So outside scope (at least for now).

Andrew




Andrew Brown -> RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread (12/8/2007 5:46:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Knavey

Will there be production for the Allies much like there is for the Japanese right now?


No, apart from what is already in the stock game (some on-map aircraft factories).

The way I see it is that the players represent the theatre commanders, so the Allied commanders (i.e. Nimitz, Macarthur, Mountbatten) don't run the Allied economy. They just get given stuff.

The Japanese theatre commanders also happen to run the government, so they get more control.

Andrew




Knavey -> RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread (12/8/2007 6:17:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown


quote:

ORIGINAL: Knavey

Will there be production for the Allies much like there is for the Japanese right now?


No, apart from what is already in the stock game (some on-map aircraft factories).

The way I see it is that the players represent the theatre commanders, so the Allied commanders (i.e. Nimitz, Macarthur, Mountbatten) don't run the Allied economy. They just get given stuff.

The Japanese theatre commanders also happen to run the government, so they get more control.

Andrew


So I guess military coups are out for the Allied player?




Brady -> RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread (12/8/2007 6:36:35 AM)

Will "Fuel" still be available at some "oil" locatrions, those that could historicaly produce crude oil so pure it could be burned in ship's without refining?




Grotius -> RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread (12/8/2007 7:07:23 AM)

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for all your work on this! I'm just thrilled about this! I know you're busy, so no rush to respond. Some questions:

1. Glad to hear of the new railroad types. Does AE model rolling stock (finite number of trains on railroads) at all?

2. Will the map include Subchaser-style "dots" to indicate the presence of oil or resources in a hex? This isn't a "must" for me, and in fact if it's too cluttered, I'd prefer a cleaner look. But I did like Subchaser's little dots.

3. Conversely, I don't care for big thick lines delineating malaria zones, control zones, weather zones, etc.; I prefer just to remember which areas have malaria. (I know your map for WITP came in two versions -- one with "lines," one without. I used the one without.) Any decisions on how your handling "lines" on the map?

4. Which flag for Japanese bases -- plain Rising Sun, or the naval ensign with red rays? The latter may be more historically accurate, but the former is easier on my aging eyes!

5. Any change to the cold-weather zones (e.g., Alaska) -- for example, more of a penalty for conducting naval/air ops there? I always felt it was too easy to operate in the far north in stock.

6. Can we build any rail lines over, say, the River Kwai? :)

7. Any changes to R&D for Japanese aircraft? (I still don't fully understand how it works in stock!)

Thanks, and thanks again for all your hard work. You guys rock.





Mifune -> RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread (12/8/2007 7:28:06 AM)

"Which flag for Japanese bases" With command being of more importance. I am hoping for a choice of two so one could tell the difference between IJA and IJN bases.




Andrew Brown -> RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread (12/8/2007 8:07:20 AM)

Found a bit more time...

quote:


1. Glad to hear of the new railroad types. Does AE model rolling stock (finite number of trains on railroads) at all?


More a question for the Land team. But I don't think so.

quote:

2. Will the map include Subchaser-style "dots" to indicate the presence of oil or resources in a hex? This isn't a "must" for me, and in fact if it's too cluttered, I'd prefer a cleaner look. But I did like Subchaser's little dots.


Not at present. Some people don't like any more map clutter, and also, resource data is scenario dependent, so fixing the symbols on the map could cause problems for modders.

I like the idea of some type of symbols myself, so what I am currently considering is providing an alternative map, with symbols added.

quote:

3. Conversely, I don't care for big thick lines delineating malaria zones, control zones, weather zones, etc.; I prefer just to remember which areas have malaria. (I know your map for WITP came in two versions -- one with "lines," one without. I used the one without.) Any decisions on how your handling "lines" on the map?


No lines.

But again, if there is a lot of interest it might be possible to create an alternative map.

quote:

4. Which flag for Japanese bases -- plain Rising Sun, or the naval ensign with red rays? The latter may be more historically accurate, but the former is easier on my aging eyes!


Currently it is the plain symbol, not the Rising Sun.

quote:

5. Any change to the cold-weather zones (e.g., Alaska) -- for example, more of a penalty for conducting naval/air ops there? I always felt it was too easy to operate in the far north in stock.


Not sure. You will need to ask the Naval guys.

quote:

6. Can we build any rail lines over, say, the River Kwai? :)


Sadly no. It was considered but didn't make the cut. Too big a change.

quote:

7. Any changes to R&D for Japanese aircraft? (I still don't fully understand how it works in stock!)


Don't think so. You will have to ask the Air team.

Andrew




Andrew Brown -> RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread (12/8/2007 8:09:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady

Will "Fuel" still be available at some "oil" locatrions, those that could historicaly produce crude oil so pure it could be burned in ship's without refining?


Actually fuel is available at most of the oil locations, because the refineries tended to be co-located with the areas of oil production. If there refineries are all destroyed there won't be any fuel generated by the oil centres though.

Andrew




Andrew Brown -> RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread (12/8/2007 8:10:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mifune

"Which flag for Japanese bases" With command being of more importance. I am hoping for a choice of two so one could tell the difference between IJA and IJN bases.


Hmmmmmm. Interesting...

Andrew

PS: Off to put up the Xmas tree...




jamesm -> RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread (12/8/2007 10:04:41 AM)

I like to use Sub Chasers Map mod, because of it 32 bit colour and resources / industries symbols next to each base that has it. Could the base resources / industries symbols be included in the standard map as it is a very useful tool?




Apollo11 -> RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread (12/8/2007 11:23:17 AM)

Hi all,

Just to check something I think I am reading between lines in press release and your answers here...


Can player in WitP-AE "command" the amount of supplies and fuel in his bases without fearing that AI would move it around (using internal transportation grid) on its own whim?

In other words are there user selected dials in Base properties GUI that would exactly reserve the amout of suplies / fuel he wants to have in a base?


IMHO that was one of the most sought improvements from current WitP that many players (including me [:)]) have voiced over the years... [:D]


Thanks in advance!


Leo "Apollo11"




Andrew Brown -> RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread (12/8/2007 12:46:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11
Can player in WitP-AE "command" the amount of supplies and fuel in his bases without fearing that AI would move it around (using internal transportation grid) on its own whim?



To be honest I am not sure. If I find out before you do I will let you know.

Andrew




witpqs -> RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread (12/8/2007 12:55:50 PM)

Hi Andrew,

Will there be a toggle to display the hex numbers in the hexes on request? This would be very useful when coordinating TF movements. Alternatively, the hex being pointed to (not the hex currently selected) could be displayed mouse-over style.




Andrew Brown -> RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread (12/8/2007 1:00:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Hi Andrew,

Will there be a toggle to display the hex numbers in the hexes on request? This would be very useful when coordinating TF movements. Alternatively, the hex being pointed to (not the hex currently selected) could be displayed mouse-over style.


I agree that it would be useful, but there are currently no plans to do this.

Andrew




Apollo11 -> RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread (12/8/2007 1:04:22 PM)

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11
Can player in WitP-AE "command" the amount of supplies and fuel in his bases without fearing that AI would move it around (using internal transportation grid) on its own whim?



To be honest I am not sure. If I find out before you do I will let you know.

Andrew


Thanks Andrew - and let's keep our fingers crossed... [:)]


Leo "Apollo11"




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