A question of scale. (Full Version)

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Geomitrak -> A question of scale. (8/28/2007 9:03:33 PM)

A number of Rising Sun scenarios have the following added to their descriptions:

Map scale has been adjusted for clarity and playability

Does anyone know what sort of adjustment scenario designers would incorporate and why?

I have more than a passing interest in this because I can't decide whether to make the Nam Youm river at Dien Bien Phu a line of connected blue water hexes or a line of river hex sides. In reality, the Nam Youm is generally 30 yards wide, and strictly speaking, making it out of blue water hexes would give it a width of 250 metres

But...it looks far better that way, than when using the river hex sides.

I'd appreciate peoples thoughts on this, regardless of whether they are experienced in scenario design or not.

[sm=character0267.gif]


Regards
Paul




cpdeyoung -> RE: A question of scale. (8/28/2007 9:18:49 PM)

I think you should feel free to model the river to get the game effect that reflects the actual role of the river in the battle.  When I tour the American Civil War battlefields I often compare the scene before my eyes with the game maps I know so well. Often the water barriers do not seem as formidable as they may appear in the game.  In the battles the officers planning the actions of massed, formed troops would not direct them into such formation destroying obstacles.  If the Viet Minh and French troops behaved as if the river was "blue hexes" then use that model, despite the actual size of the stream.  Of course this is just my opinion, and the hex sides could be used with a "special rule", but I would gladly play your scenario as you design it, and would not be measuring the distance.

Chuck




Geomitrak -> RE: A question of scale. (8/28/2007 10:07:30 PM)

Thanks Chuck; just the sort of thoughts I'm looking for.

I'm in contact with three people who've actually visited the battlefield, and their consensus is that the river was sufficiently deep to prevent infantry wading across at will, so thats the 'obstacle to movement' aspect pretty much taken care of. 

But, of course, the remaining consequence of using water hexes instead of river hex sides is that they add another 250 metres range to 'cross river' fire, both friendly and enemy. Crucial, if the river is being crossed by a bridge!

I wonder what that Map scale has been adjusted for clarity and playability means...

Regards
Paul







Jason Petho -> RE: A question of scale. (8/28/2007 10:12:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Geomitrak


I wonder what that Map scale has been adjusted for clarity and playability means...



I would imagine that the designers of the scenario in question felt the need to adjust/exaggerate the map scale to actually make the area playable. Some of the islands in the Pacific are extremely small and would represent next to nothing but a handful of hexes on a typical Campaign Series map.

Jason Petho




Arizonus -> RE: A question of scale. (8/28/2007 10:16:47 PM)

Keep also in mind that a hexside bridge can be blown during the game, a full-hex bridge cannot...but in general, I agree with deyoung, as long as the effects of the terrain are properly modeled, go ahead and choose whichever terrain type suits you aesthetically!

>>  I wonder what that Map scale has been adjusted for clarity and playability means...

    Probably, in most cases, this means everything has been shrunk down a little bit so you can build a scenario that's not 80 turns long.....

                                                                                       Ariz




Arizonus -> RE: A question of scale. (8/28/2007 10:18:35 PM)

lol    Jason   or that!   :)




Jason Petho -> RE: A question of scale. (8/28/2007 10:18:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arizonus

Keep also in mind that a hexside bridge can be blown during the game, a full-hex bridge cannot...but in general, I agree with deyoung, as long as the effects of the terrain are properly modeled, go ahead and choose whichever terrain type suits you aesthetically!


By adding a darkblue hexside river hex at the end of a full-hex bridge and adding a hexside bridge there, you can effectively have it so the full-hex bridge is "blown".

Jason Petho




Arizonus -> RE: A question of scale. (8/28/2007 10:20:29 PM)

Hmmm - have to try that!




Geomitrak -> RE: A question of scale. (8/28/2007 10:37:21 PM)

Jason, good point. Thinking along those lines, maybe because jungle combat was very often at close quarters ( i.e. under 250 metres...the size of a hex ), and that you can't have enemy and friendly units occupying the same hex at the same time, the battlefield has to be scaled upwards.

Arizonus, very true. There is no mention in any of the cardinal accounts of the battle that the bridges were ever wired for demolition by the French, so they should remain 'untouchable', so to speak.

Regards
Paul




wings7 -> RE: A question of scale. (8/29/2007 12:53:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho



By adding a darkblue hexside river hex at the end of a full-hex bridge and adding a hexside bridge there, you can effectively have it so the full-hex bridge is "blown".

Jason Petho


Hello Jason,

Forgive my ignorance, could you graphically show us what you mean (using the map editor and a screen shot?). Thanks for all your help and dedication!

Patrick




Jason Petho -> RE: A question of scale. (8/29/2007 12:57:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wings7


Hello Jason,

Forgive my ignorance, could you graphically show us what you mean (using the map editor and a screen shot?). Thanks for all your help and dedication!

Patrick



Yes, I will do so this evening when I get home.

Jason Petho




Jason Petho -> RE: A question of scale. (8/29/2007 1:48:29 AM)

Before

[image]local://upfiles/12395/EBADAAD14427496887AEAC1C47F921D7.jpg[/image]




Jason Petho -> RE: A question of scale. (8/29/2007 1:49:33 AM)

After

Of course, the extent of the hexside river is lengthened for visual cue and not necessary in a real map.

Jason Petho

[image]local://upfiles/12395/7D7AF0CA41DA4A51943D2299EC3E17AB.jpg[/image]




1925frank -> RE: A question of scale. (8/29/2007 7:33:11 AM)

Is this the type of thing you'd consider correcting or modifying?  At its simplest, I guess it would require enabling an engineer unit to destroy a full-hex bridge.




wings7 -> RE: A question of scale. (8/30/2007 1:18:45 AM)

Thank you Jason!!

Patrick




Jason Petho -> RE: A question of scale. (8/30/2007 1:50:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wings7

Thank you Jason!!

Patrick


No problem, Patrick.

Jason Petho




Geomitrak -> RE: A question of scale. (8/31/2007 5:24:58 PM)

Thats a very neat terrain trick there, Jason. [:)]

Its got me thinking about some of the scenarios I've played over the years, like the excellent 'Hells Highway' by H.J Baltjes, and how the possibility of demolishing the big bridges would have altered the game play. Interesting stuff.

Regards
Paul







baltjes -> RE: A question of scale. (9/2/2007 11:02:49 PM)

Hello Geomitrak,

When creating my Hell's Highway scenario, I indeed struggled with the problem of 'blowable' bridges over major-river hexes and solved it by the way Jason has described (putting a river hexes and a bridge at both land- sides of the major river hex). I incorporated that in later scenario's as 'Hollow Victory II', 'Operarion Market Garden' and 'Overlord'. I appreciate tah you like Hell's Highway, but would strongly recommand the later scenario's since they have improved maps, a more correct Order of Battle and a better flow of the game. For example, as the German player, you now have to make a discission early in the game whether to blow the railway bridge at Oosterbeek (as the Germans orriginally did) or not. However, you need "Battle Pack 1' and 'Operation Sea Lion' to run them. I am thinking of adapting these scenario's to the JTCS-system since there are a number of units available now that I really missed when developing the scenario's (especially the PIAT- and Bazooka teams).

Yours sincerely,

Hajo Baltjes




Geomitrak -> RE: A question of scale. (9/3/2007 12:50:47 AM)

Mr Baltjes!

Hajo, what a pleasure to meet you. I thoroughly enjoyed Hells Highway, though I only got as far as about turn 170 before my hard drive died and I lost everything. I managed to get XXX Corps to Arnhem, where the British 1st Airborne was hanging on by its fingernails. The defence of Arnhem was one of the most desperate battles I've ever fought in these games, so thank you very much for many hours of fun.

I shall certainly think about playing the later version; I'm sure it will be wargaming time very well spent!

Regards
Paul




Geomitrak -> RE: A question of scale. (9/3/2007 1:34:00 PM)

Hajo, I've found your 'Hollow Victory' scenario, but not 'Market Garden. I assume 'Market Garden' is the entire operation as dealt with in Hells Highway, and I think I'd like to have a crack at it.

Can you link me to 'Market Garden' please ?

Regards
Paul




baltjes -> RE: A question of scale. (9/4/2007 10:55:35 PM)

Hello Paul,

Both scenario's 'Hollow Victory II' and 'Operation Market-Garden' can be found in the games depot of the Wargamer under 'Westfront with Sea Lion Expansion'. If you nevertheless can't find them, please give me your e-mail adress and I'll send them to you directly.

Hollow Victory II is an improved Hollow Victory (corrected map, improved OOB). Operation Market-Garden Is both an improvement (map, OOB's) as well as an extension of Hell's Highway. The map is significantly wider, since with Hell's Highway I experienced a lack of 'room to maneuver' especially in the area west of the town of BEST (US 101 AB Division and German 15th Army area). As a consequence, more troops (both Axis and Allied) are involved.

By the way, notice that in both scenario's some bridges over major river hexes (full hex rivers) are intentionally not able to be blown! That is to say, ´Jasons Trick´ is NOT applied there. For example, the Highway bridge over the river Rhine at Arnhem. With the entrance of Moeller´s SS engineers (9 SS Panzer Division) rather early in the game, and Arnhem not yet occupied by the Red Devils, the scenario would come to its end too soon. Other bridges, however, (e.g. Railway at Oosterbeek, Railway bridge over the River Maas near Mook and many others) can be blown!

Regards,

Hajo




Geomitrak -> RE: A question of scale. (9/7/2007 3:57:23 PM)

Hi Hajo,

Thank you very much for that; I have found and downloaded it. After losing my saved game, Market Garden has been unfinished business, so its great to have this new version of the operation to compliment the new version of West Front. I've had a look at it, and the bigger wider map is immediately obvious, as are all the new formations. With the long dark winter nights approaching, this is going to be hugely enjoyable. Well done and thank you!

[sm=00000436.gif]

Gentlemen, if you aren't familiar with Hajo's work, download one of his scenarios and witness just what is possible with JTCS. Even if a 440 turn scenario is too daunting ( his Overlord scenario is even bigger! ), get it just to look at and explore. It is wargaming on a grand scale.



Regards
Paul





Juggalo -> RE: A question of scale. (9/9/2007 10:26:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Geomitrak

Hi Hajo,

Thank you very much for that; I have found and downloaded it. After losing my saved game, Market Garden has been unfinished business, so its great to have this new version of the operation to compliment the new version of West Front. I've had a look at it, and the bigger wider map is immediately obvious, as are all the new formations. With the long dark winter nights approaching, this is going to be hugely enjoyable. Well done and thank you!

[sm=00000436.gif]

Gentlemen, if you aren't familiar with Hajo's work, download one of his scenarios and witness just what is possible with JTCS. Even if a 440 turn scenario is too daunting ( his Overlord scenario is even bigger! ), get it just to look at and explore. It is wargaming on a grand scale.



Regards
Paul



His scenarios are VERY impressive....[X(]

I wish night turns could be modeled though.....[>:]




baltjes -> RE: A question of scale. (9/10/2007 8:25:13 PM)

Hello Juggalo,

At least in my 'Operation Market-Garden' scenario, I described a method on how to deal with night turns and night visibility in the Designers Notes. This method was given to me by Mike Guntorius.


Regards,


Hajo Baltjes




warhead2 -> RE: A question of scale. (12/9/2008 5:49:54 PM)

bump for bridge trick and where are we getting custom scenarios for JTCS now?




V22 Osprey -> RE: A question of scale. (12/10/2008 3:05:09 AM)

The wargamer and you can find some great new H2H scenarios at The Blitz.




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