Feeling a bit isolated (Full Version)

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fentum -> Feeling a bit isolated (6/27/2007 1:02:17 AM)

I notice on occasion that units can be referred to as 'isolated' - what does that condition mean and how do you get into the condition (beyond rank stupidity !).

Fentum




Jason Petho -> RE: Feeling a bit isolated (6/27/2007 1:07:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fentum

I notice on occasion that units can be referred to as 'isolated' - what does that condition mean and how do you get into the condition (beyond rank stupidity !).

Fentum


Basically it means the units that are isolated are surrounded and will not receive supply until they are relieved.

Jason Petho




CJMello63 -> RE: Feeling a bit isolated (6/27/2007 1:44:49 AM)

No direct path to their HQ/other units. Broken up by enemy forces.




Arizonus -> RE: Feeling a bit isolated (6/27/2007 2:50:04 AM)

I've never quite got hold of this one - "Isolation" can be accomplished by units in every other hex? evry third hex?




CJMello63 -> RE: Feeling a bit isolated (6/27/2007 3:39:09 AM)

John's other series had a ZOC of one hex. Manual isn't clear for CS. I actually tried to get a glossary for the RS manual but that got cut. From past work I would say one hex but I am uncertain at this point. Supply was much better explained.




Digger70 -> RE: Feeling a bit isolated (6/27/2007 5:08:08 AM)

Supply follows the same rules as the assault rules, in which units do exert a ZOC in terms of surrounding a unit. ZOC is exerted in teh 6 hexes around the, unfortunately for all units including unarmoured transport.

If you have friendly units adjacent to you and they can trace a line of supply to a HQ that does not cross an enemy ZOC you are okay

If you cannot trace a supply line through a non enemy controlled hex then you are isolated and will by automatically in low supply, unless you are an artillery unit as HQ's have no impact on the supply of artillery ammo only the global Ammo rating





fentum -> RE: Feeling a bit isolated (6/27/2007 8:41:12 PM)

Thanks to all for the feedback.

So to get this straight from the posts - 'isolated' has the same effect as 'low on supply', but is brought into effect by being 'surrounded' by enemy units ? Also an isolated unit cannot get out of 'low on supply' until it gets out of isolation? Still not clear on the ZOC piece - I didn't think units HAD ZOCs in CS? Do you need a unit blocking all paths to an HQ or is there a ZOC blocking effect on supply? Is any of this in the manual ? I'm not one for detailed manual perusal, but I have skimmed it then jumped in to play the game (learning as I go), but didn't see any of this stuff in my skimming!


Fentum




Digger70 -> RE: Feeling a bit isolated (6/28/2007 8:19:25 AM)

The ZOC or Zone of Control stuff isn't in the manual, I guess for a wargame designer of the experience of John Tiller it was taken to be a given. So it was implemented for both supply, retreats and assaults.

Units cannot retreat into an enemy controlled ZOC nor can they obtain supply through an enemy controlled ZOC.

They can retreat into hexes where other friendly units are located, within the stacking limits of 24 Strength Points per hex, even if these are adjacent to the enemy, as the presence of friendly units negates the ability of the enemy to exert ZOC on that hex.

Savvy players who have been playing this game for along time use the disrupt/surround/assualt technique with frightening precision. This takes advantage of the ZOC rules and the inability of units to retreat into an enemy controlled hex. You only need to shoot your opponent disrupt all of them in a hex then then block off their line of retreat though the exertion of ZOC on all their possible retreat paths and then an assault will more than likely result in their capture.

The best way to surround a unit is from two opposing compass points, this can be down with as little as two units as each unit will exert a ZOC on the 3 hexes either side of the surrounded unit. If you put a unit directly north and directly south of an enemy unit. They will be automatically isolated and unable to retreat unless there are friends adjacent to them.

Another factor of isolation is that, a unit will not automatically go to low ammo status, they will have an increased chance of going out of supply and as long as they remain isolated they will NOT regain supply status.




coralsaw -> RE: Feeling a bit isolated (6/28/2007 3:38:48 PM)

Hello, and thanks for the info.

Not wishing to doubt what you're saying, and it's been many years since I last played CS myself so I can't remember, but the manual FAQ on page 120 states:

Q. Does the game have any “Zones of Control”?
A. No. This is a game where zones of control do not come into play.


Is the manual wrong in this respect?

/coralsaw




Digger70 -> RE: Feeling a bit isolated (6/29/2007 4:43:10 AM)

Coralsaw,

It depends what you define ZoC for, like I stated it is only used for supply and retreats, NOT movement, traditonal ZOC rules force a unit to stop moving the moment it enters an enemy ZOC and will not allow them to move from one ZOC hex to another. These go back to tabletop wargame days in the 70's and 80's 

So in the traditonal sense the rulebook is correct, most people would view an enemy ZoC as a means to limit movement, which is clearly not the case in the CS. At the same time the rulebook does fail to mention the fact that in terms of retreats and supply it is utilised.

Now whether this was a design intention or not I cannot comment, but the reality is that units will never retreat adjacent to an enemy unit, unless the hex is already occupied by friendlies. If they are required to do so they will take an additional strength point loss or reduction and remain where they are. I have seen many times when units actually retreat towards you and then stop 2 hexes away and evaporate with repeated reduction results. This is an undeniable fact of gameplay. The only way this could happen is if enemy units exert a ZOC.

The same goes for Isolation and supply, If you surround a unit on directly opposing sides with only two other units in adjacent hexes, leaving 4 hexes unoccupied. The Unit will be declared isolated. Again whether this is a design intention or not, the fact is that the only way this can happen is if the two enemy units exert ZOC over those hexes. Otherwise you would have to completely surround a unit in all six hexes to cut off its supply or make it isolated.

The Rulebook is just not clear on this. The rulebook gives a good general overview, but the detailed mechanics are left to experience.

Matt ~Digger







Elwro -> RE: Feeling a bit isolated (6/29/2007 10:09:26 AM)

Thanks for the information! Does every unit have a ZOC which prevents enemy retreats, or are empty wagons, motorcycles etc an exception? (I'm not sure, but I think I noticed enemy retreating near my empty wagons in the last scenario I played, but it might've been my mistake.)




fentum -> RE: Feeling a bit isolated (6/30/2007 1:18:23 PM)

Digger70,

Thanks for the detailed answer. Makes sense to have ZOC effects on retreat and supply but I'm very surprised that it's not clearly explained in the manual. Good question from Elwro ... please tell me that transports don't exert ZOCs in this way, otherwise I can see all sorts of gamey options available with banzai trucks cutting retreats and supply ! Now I would NEVER stoop to that - obviously. With the supply/retreat ZOC in play, then I'm thinking that I'll have to start using my GBOH:SPQR type 'isolate and roll up the line' maneuvers.

Thanks again.


Fentum




Geomitrak -> RE: Feeling a bit isolated (6/30/2007 1:23:48 PM)

All this is great information. Thanks very much, Digger. [sm=00000436.gif]




CJMello63 -> RE: Feeling a bit isolated (6/30/2007 2:40:57 PM)

John's other series deal with the above movement, retreat, etc.. CS is more supply & HQ orientated. A glossary that I wanted to create for RS would have helped a bit.




Digger70 -> RE: Feeling a bit isolated (7/2/2007 5:08:48 AM)

Fentum,

You have stumbled on one of the Gamey tactics in CS, YES non-combat units do exert ZOC for retreat and supply purposes

I play all of my games H2H and this is considered unacceptable play by most, usually covered in a ROE before play starts thougha all of the guys I play with don't do it period.

I would not even do it against the AI it is so dodgy, It is not just about winning, but doing it in style.

Digger70




CJMello63 -> RE: Feeling a bit isolated (7/2/2007 3:35:19 PM)

Clubs aften do not allow the use of trucks that way or used as recon.




coralsaw -> RE: Feeling a bit isolated (7/2/2007 4:24:52 PM)

Just a brief thanks, Matt, for this great piece of info.

/coralsaw




fentum -> RE: Feeling a bit isolated (7/2/2007 4:26:45 PM)

Digger/Mello,

Too right ! I also hate to see gamey stuff going on. I just tend to leave the trucks behind once the occupants are out and in action. I'm really enjoying the small games, but must try some larger scenarios then I can have a game vs real people !


Fentum




CJMello63 -> RE: Feeling a bit isolated (7/3/2007 5:56:57 AM)

I send them to the rear or as transports again when the front starts to move fast.




british exil -> RE: Feeling a bit isolated (7/4/2007 2:13:04 AM)

That's the way we are meant to use the vehicles. Or rather how they were used in real ww2 style.
At the moment I'm playing EF and the horses fire at you. Disrupting and causing losses even. So u can't even really bypass them. I know the next patch will solve the issue, but it is a pain when you've got to mop up a pack of horses. Would be nice if you could capture trucks and the like and use them for one's own troop transportation.




CJMello63 -> RE: Feeling a bit isolated (7/4/2007 3:47:37 AM)

Its being looked at. So are the killer bikes.




dudalb -> RE: Feeling a bit isolated (7/4/2007 4:23:33 AM)

Wow.You mean trucks can become deadly weapons systems..just like The Transformers?[:D]




CJMello63 -> RE: Feeling a bit isolated (7/4/2007 7:32:37 AM)

Robots in disguise. There was a good CG movie that had robots in WWII. An Allied and Axis one duking it out. After the Axis robot gets knocked off out comes a ninja.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWBKSO4DvWk&mode=related&search=




fentum -> RE: Feeling a bit isolated (7/4/2007 10:12:10 AM)

Uh-oh! Hallucinatory substance alert ... Axis transformers? Ninja assassins? Horses with rifles? What have you chaps been ON? ... and can I please have some!

Actually, those ideas sound like a great premise for the next top selling RTS game ... Transforming Ninja Horse Assassins with Mausers.


You may laugh, but Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles anyone?


Cheers !

Fentum




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