AI for MWiF - China (Full Version)

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Froonp -> AI for MWiF - China (4/19/2007 1:34:32 AM)

Hey, no thread on this one ??? This is not serious !!! [:D]

First, a question :
Should the AI of China be a 2 headed hydra : Communist AIO & Nationalist AIO ?

IMO, no need for 2 AIO.
China is a one and only country, the only difference is that the Communist actions are counted on Russian activities limits.
Well, technically, Communist units are moved by the Russia player too, well this is a problem, but the general strategy for China is still a whole. It could be broken in two parts, but IMO this is not desirable.

So what are the plans for China in WiF FE ?




npilgaard -> RE: AI for MWiF - China (4/19/2007 11:01:37 AM)

Regarding setup:
First choice is whether to set up units east of Chang-Sa (i.e. protect the 'entire' Chinese controlled area) or set up a shorter defensive line in the mountains west of that city.
I will usually go for the first one, but that requires careful consideration on when to retreat, to avoid the units being cut off when the Japanese take the city.

However, since the MWiF map changes things i China dramatically, I think that the testers, who have actually tried playing in this theater, will have more valuable advice [:)]

I assume that one thing is still valid for the Chinese: try to defend and avoid being conquered. Build as many cheap land units as possible - INF (and maybe split them to DIVs), GAR, Warlords (if playing with that rule) - and maybe a single FTR or AA. Only when the cheap land units are pretty much built out or if Japan is engaged elsewhere in a major land-conflict (eg vs. Russia og CW) can other unit types be considered.

Regards
Nikolaj




iamspamus -> RE: AI for MWiF - China (4/19/2007 2:39:30 PM)

Huh, Patrice. I thought that the CC and Nationalists HISTORICALLY fought each other as much or more than they did the Japanese. Seems pretty hydra-like to me.

Jason
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Hey, no thread on this one ??? This is not serious !!! [:D]

First, a question :
Should the AI of China be a 2 headed hydra : Communist AIO & Nationalist AIO ?

IMO, no need for 2 AIO.
China is a one and only country, the only difference is that the Communist actions are counted on Russian activities limits.
Well, technically, Communist units are moved by the Russia player too, well this is a problem, but the general strategy for China is still a whole. It could be broken in two parts, but IMO this is not desirable.

So what are the plans for China in WiF FE ?





Frederyck -> RE: AI for MWiF - China (4/19/2007 4:41:28 PM)

They may very well have been at each others throats all along, but in WiF this is only mirrored by the facts that they don't co-operate, and that the Communists are nominally controlled by the Russian player. I can't remember a game where a Russian player did something with the Communist Chinese that was totally against the wishes of the Nationalist player. Sometimes you just have to let the Communists stand where they are and not do anything because the Russian needs his moves, but nothing more than that.




composer99 -> RE: AI for MWiF - China (4/19/2007 5:16:04 PM)

In WiF:FE my group usually sets a few Nationalists up in the north so the Communists can concentrate their forces in two hexes and so they don't get outflanked right away.

That may or may not work as well with the new scale.




Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: AI for MWiF - China (4/20/2007 2:31:34 AM)

Here are some screen shots so you can consider where to setup the Chinese (Global War scenario). It shouldn't be too hard to decipher this page. The lines of code identify type of unit and quantity. The unit lists show which ones are in the force pools and available for random selection. Communists are in the upper right.

The next 3 screen shots show the new map of China with flags indicating who controls what. Communist Chinese set up after the Nationalists and have to be within 6 hexes or less of Sian or Lanchow. They may only set up in a city if the city has been designated Communist.

[image]local://upfiles/16701/2F12EC7BEC9144478C98D2C7F30D4CE5.jpg[/image]




Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: AI for MWiF - China (4/20/2007 2:34:02 AM)

The heart of China.

[image]local://upfiles/16701/290094C4759549AF90710AA251E886C3.jpg[/image]




Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: AI for MWiF - China (4/20/2007 2:36:19 AM)

A more complete view of northern China.

[image]local://upfiles/16701/ACF8A5D0174A40B1925D73222F15E08F.jpg[/image]




Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: AI for MWiF - China (4/20/2007 2:42:10 AM)

4th and last in the series.

A more complete view of southern China. Because the flags have been turned on, some of the city icons are not visible: Nanchang and Wuhan.

So, where do you setup the Chinese?

[image]local://upfiles/16701/5D703F307B5C4472B0609178BC685764.jpg[/image]




Froonp -> RE: AI for MWiF - China (4/20/2007 2:48:21 AM)

quote:

A more complete view of southern China. Because the flags have been turned on, some of the city icons are not visible: Nanchang and Wuhan.

The city, port, factory, resource icons should be drawn above the flags.
The flags, even if partialy covered, can be guessed at, partly thanks to the neighboring flags. The symbols can't, and not seeing them is very bad.




Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: AI for MWiF - China (4/20/2007 2:49:54 AM)

Yeah, I'll do that.




Froonp -> RE: AI for MWiF - China (4/20/2007 2:51:24 AM)

quote:

So, where do you setup the Chinese?

You need to also mention the Japanese forces, so that Chinese setup can be tried.




lomyrin -> RE: AI for MWiF - China (4/20/2007 3:06:53 AM)

This looks like the China map with all the extra cities option on. The option with only some of the cities or for that matter the one with none of the extra cities will cause the setups to be quite different, I believe. With this map I would garrison Wuhan and the cities along the rails in southern China and the Chungking Mil, and sometimes also the Kunming Mil, in Chengchow to absorb a Japanese impulse. The Communists placed in the mountains flanking the approaches to Si An and in the mountain hex east of Si An

CWiF sets up both the Communist Mil's presumably as a help in the larger map from that of WiFFE.

The option using Warlords will further change the setup decisions.

Lars






amwild -> RE: AI for MWiF - China (4/20/2007 6:00:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

A more complete view of southern China. Because the flags have been turned on, some of the city icons are not visible: Nanchang and Wuhan.

The city, port, factory, resource icons should be drawn above the flags.
The flags, even if partialy covered, can be guessed at, partly thanks to the neighboring flags. The symbols can't, and not seeing them is very bad.


Maybe when toggling flags on, they could appear above everything for a second or two, then be placed below these other objects. That way, we can see the flags clearly by toggling them off and on when necessary if they are obscured.




npilgaard -> RE: AI for MWiF - China (4/20/2007 6:22:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

So, where do you setup the Chinese?

You need to also mention the Japanese forces, so that Chinese setup can be tried.


Japan:
Setup in China: 1 HQ (Umezu), 5 INF, 2 MIL, 2 GAR, 2(3) FTR2, 2(3) LND2, 2 guns, 2 INF DIVs, 2 warlords (Shanghai, Peking)
If Japan decides to go heavily on China from the start, more units can be brought in.
Other units setup:
Japan: 1 HQ, 1 MIL, 2 MAR, 1 gun, 1 ENG
Manchuria/Korea: 1 HQ, 1 MOT, 1 MIL, 1 GAR, 1 CAV, 2 TERR
Asia/Pacific: 1 INF, 1(2) NAV2, 1 NAV3, 1 MAR DIV

China has 4 warlords (Chungking, Kunming, Lan-Chow, Cheng-Tu)

Btw, I think I once read something about unlimited number of (INF?) DIVs being available, because of the long frontline in China, and the difficulties of defending it with only a limited number of units. Is that (in many ways significant) change going to be implemented?

Regards
Nikolaj




composer99 -> RE: AI for MWiF - China (4/20/2007 7:11:45 PM)

The extra cities ameliorate the Chinese supply situation that existed in CWiF, and they also make up for Japan's newfound manoeuvrability by giving them extra USE rolls.

However, unless I were playtesting the China campaign (and I have no desire or time to be a beta tester just now), I don't really have any useful suggestions to make for China in this theatre.

I'll look at it, maybe print off the map images in this topic, and try and come up with some ideas over the weekend.




Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: AI for MWiF - China (4/20/2007 9:15:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: npilgaard
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
quote:

So, where do you setup the Chinese?

You need to also mention the Japanese forces, so that Chinese setup can be tried.


Japan:
Setup in China: 1 HQ (Umezu), 5 INF, 2 MIL, 2 GAR, 2(3) FTR2, 2(3) LND2, 2 guns, 2 INF DIVs, 2 warlords (Shanghai, Peking)
If Japan decides to go heavily on China from the start, more units can be brought in.
Other units setup:
Japan: 1 HQ, 1 MIL, 2 MAR, 1 gun, 1 ENG
Manchuria/Korea: 1 HQ, 1 MOT, 1 MIL, 1 GAR, 1 CAV, 2 TERR
Asia/Pacific: 1 INF, 1(2) NAV2, 1 NAV3, 1 MAR DIV

China has 4 warlords (Chungking, Kunming, Lan-Chow, Cheng-Tu)

Btw, I think I once read something about unlimited number of (INF?) DIVs being available, because of the long frontline in China, and the difficulties of defending it with only a limited number of units. Is that (in many ways significant) change going to be implemented?

Regards
Nikolaj

The optional rule for unlimited divisions has several constraints.

First, the only divisions that can be Built are those units that are part of the WIF FE counter mix. You can't build 'new' divisions.

Second, only major powers can break down divisions. This is also true in WIF FE because of the counter mix.

Third, when a corps/army is broken down, New divisions are created that are not part of the WIF FE counter mix.

Fourth, corps/armies that are broken down are set aside in a separate Broken Down Pool and are not immediately available to be built again. To make this clear, they do not go into the Force Pool. When (new) divisions are reformed into corps, then the corps are taken from the Broken Down Pool (only).

Fifth, when (new) divisions, that were created by breaking down a corps/army, are destroyed, they go into the Broken Down Pool.

Lastly, when it is possible for two divisions in the Broken Down Pool to be reformed into a corps/army, then that is done. The reformed corps/army is moved into the Force Pool so it can be rebuilt, and the divisons are vaporized into non-existence.




npilgaard -> RE: AI for MWiF - China (4/21/2007 6:08:49 PM)

I have mended the 3 map files together to a single map - that makes it easier to use for testing of setup - for e.g. Cyberboard (for non-playtesters, who don't have acces to the MWiF map elsewhere).

Map is here:
http://www.geocities.com/npilgaard/MWiF_China.jpg




npilgaard -> RE: AI for MWiF - China (4/21/2007 6:29:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

The optional rule for unlimited divisions has several constraints.

First, the only divisions that can be Built are those units that are part of the WIF FE counter mix. You can't build 'new' divisions.

Second, only major powers can break down divisions. This is also true in WIF FE because of the counter mix.

Third, when a corps/army is broken down, New divisions are created that are not part of the WIF FE counter mix.

Fourth, corps/armies that are broken down are set aside in a separate Broken Down Pool and are not immediately available to be built again. To make this clear, they do not go into the Force Pool. When (new) divisions are reformed into corps, then the corps are taken from the Broken Down Pool (only).

Fifth, when (new) divisions, that were created by breaking down a corps/army, are destroyed, they go into the Broken Down Pool.

Lastly, when it is possible for two divisions in the Broken Down Pool to be reformed into a corps/army, then that is done. The reformed corps/army is moved into the Force Pool so it can be rebuilt, and the divisons are vaporized into non-existence.


Sounds very balanced.
Are the usual limitations on unit type still in effect? (i.e. INF corps turn into INF DIV + INF/MOT DIV) - if so, then in effect only INF corps (and maybe a CAV/MTN or two) can be split up for China (no MIL or GAR DIVs, I assume).




Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: AI for MWiF - China (4/21/2007 9:38:51 PM)

Yes the limitations on type still apply. However, the player gets to decide if he wants the second division to be regular infantry or motorized - not random, this is his choice. MIL and GAR can not be broken down.




paulderynck -> RE: AI for MWiF - China (4/24/2007 2:06:43 AM)

OT question: Where is the yellow city dot for Wuhan?




Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: AI for MWiF - China (4/24/2007 2:10:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

OT question: Where is the yellow city dot for Wuhan?

As mentioned somewhere above, the flag in the hex covers the city icon for Wuhan. The city is in the Japanese controlled hex on the rail line (the hex contains the letters 'Wu').

Someone wanted to set up Chinese units in Wuhan, but that is not possible.




paulderynck -> RE: AI for MWiF - China (4/24/2007 2:11:47 AM)

Never mind - saw the third post about the icons.

Sorry.




Froonp -> RE: AI for MWiF - China (4/24/2007 7:57:58 PM)

For setup, I would setup the Nationalists in a defensive line in the mountains from about West of Hengyang / Changsha, to Nanning. This defense will be able to adapt to the Japanese threat because the units are more mobile on this map. Either move a little to the north, to the east, to match the enemy's advance. The important thing here is to prevent the Japanese from 2 things : Reaching Chunging, and cutting the Burma Road west of Kunming. If it is cut east of Kunming, this is not a problem, as the CW oil and / or lend lease will still be able to arrive in Kunming.

I would setup the 2 Nationalist CAV in the mountains between this area and the Communist area (in the mountains between Ichang & Chunking) (What are their name ???). Those 2 CAV would serve to interdict fast moving Japanese troops from dashing into the heartland (the Chungking Plateau). Their mobiliy allow them to press on in the direction that the Japanese will press on.

In the games I played using the old CWiF map, this defense usually managed at hold the Japanese. Here loosing an hex in a bloody battle is less important than in wiF FE, because there are more mountain hexes between the Japanese & Chunking / Kunming.


The only (BIG) problem, is how to setup the Communists.
It would be good to have troops in Yennan & Ankang (1 Nat CAV would be good here), to anchor some form of frontline, and to threaten the would be advancing Japanese (on the Sian-Lanchow Axis) of having their supply cut. But the communist start with few troops.

Defending Sian is a must IMO, but its defenders should withdraw to Tianshui when the Japanese threaten to surround them.
Having the threat of Yennan & Ankang on their side should slow the Japanese down, and allow for a Chinese build up, either in these cities, or in Sining / Lanchow / Tianshui.
The objective of the Communist should be both to survive, and not to loose the last Communist city on the map.

Before the extra cities were added, the Communist was simply killed out of supply as soon as Sian fell, because there was not backup supply source, and the troops were too slow to reach. In that respect, I think that the extra cities were an obligation for the whole Chinese front to mean something.




Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: AI for MWiF - China (4/24/2007 9:21:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
For setup, I would setup the Nationalists in a defensive line in the mountains from about West of Hengyang / Changsha, to Nanning. This defense will be able to adapt to the Japanese threat because the units are more mobile on this map. Either move a little to the north, to the east, to match the enemy's advance. The important thing here is to prevent the Japanese from 2 things : Reaching Chunging, and cutting the Burma Road west of Kunming. If it is cut east of Kunming, this is not a problem, as the CW oil and / or lend lease will still be able to arrive in Kunming.

I would setup the 2 Nationalist CAV in the mountains between this area and the Communist area (in the mountains between Ichang & Chunking) (What are their name ???). Those 2 CAV would serve to interdict fast moving Japanese troops from dashing into the heartland (the Chungking Plateau). Their mobiliy allow them to press on in the direction that the Japanese will press on.

In the games I played using the old CWiF map, this defense usually managed at hold the Japanese. Here loosing an hex in a bloody battle is less important than in wiF FE, because there are more mountain hexes between the Japanese & Chunking / Kunming.


The only (BIG) problem, is how to setup the Communists.
It would be good to have troops in Yennan & Ankang (1 Nat CAV would be good here), to anchor some form of frontline, and to threaten the would be advancing Japanese (on the Sian-Lanchow Axis) of having their supply cut. But the communist start with few troops.

Defending Sian is a must IMO, but its defenders should withdraw to Tianshui when the Japanese threaten to surround them.
Having the threat of Yennan & Ankang on their side should slow the Japanese down, and allow for a Chinese build up, either in these cities, or in Sining / Lanchow / Tianshui.
The objective of the Communist should be both to survive, and not to loose the last Communist city on the map.

Before the extra cities were added, the Communist was simply killed out of supply as soon as Sian fell, because there was not backup supply source, and the troops were too slow to reach. In that respect, I think that the extra cities were an obligation for the whole Chinese front to mean something.

Ankang is not Communist controlled and not available for the Communists to set up in.

The setup restrictions on the Communists are that they be within 6 hexes of Lanchow or Sian, but not in cities that are controlled by the Nationalists. I have increased the number of cities the Communists control (adding those that are new to the MWIF map) but that list does not include Ankang. The list is:
Sining, Lanchow, Tianshui, Ningsia, Yennan, Sian, and Tungkwan. By making these Communist controlled at the start of the game, the Nationalists may not setup in them and the Commnists may.




Froonp -> RE: AI for MWiF - China (4/24/2007 9:44:02 PM)

quote:

Ankang is not Communist controlled and not available for the Communists to set up in.

It is not a problem. If the commies want to have Ankang Communist, they just have to setup next to it, and occupy it immediately.

Anyway, this is a position best used for a NAt CAV as I also said.




trees -> RE: AI for MWiF - China (4/28/2007 12:13:07 AM)

going way back to Patrice's first post in this thread ... if I recall correctly, any objectives controlled by the Chinese Communists are counted towards the Russian victory total?

If this is so, the ChiComms should be run by the Russian AIO along the lines of an aligned minor. The end of the game can see the ChiComms loosely coordinating with the Russians on a race to Shanghai before the Nationalists, or having Russian bombers groundstriking Japanese targets while Mao approaches a Japanese held Vladivostok, for example.

A key tactic for the Nationalists is to use the Shanghai, Peking and Canton MIL units in out of the way flanks that still need to be covered, and/or stacked with other Nationalist units that can take any loss to the hex, as if these units are killed they can never be rebuilt. Conversely the Chungking MIL needs to be in the center of the action as it is strong and cheap, however with the new map it returns to the map farther away than it used to, so it too should probably be treated more as a reserve type unit. The GARRisons should get killed over and over again in any city in the way of the Japanese.

I think with this map I would be tempted to hold the Pearl ? river in front of Canton to force the Japanese to dig me out, and to keep the Japanese Garrison in Canton (they can't afford to garrison it lightly) in a Chinese ZoC so they won't count towards the anti-PARTisan garrison count. If the Japanese built a Mech division I would abandon this idea though. I would also hold the Chang-sha area, and have a few units to help hold the flanks of Si-An. With both sides I would convert the CAV corps to a pair of cavalry divisions for raids in the mountains, and for dealing with such from the other side. The Japanese ones would be backed by ground support factors and later potentially ATR supply and would be difficult to dislodge from almost anywhere.




Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: AI for MWiF - China (4/28/2007 3:21:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: trees
going way back to Patrice's first post in this thread ... if I recall correctly, any objectives controlled by the Chinese Communists are counted towards the Russian victory total?

If this is so, the ChiComms should be run by the Russian AIO along the lines of an aligned minor. The end of the game can see the ChiComms loosely coordinating with the Russians on a race to Shanghai before the Nationalists, or having Russian bombers groundstriking Japanese targets while Mao approaches a Japanese held Vladivostok, for example.

A key tactic for the Nationalists is to use the Shanghai, Peking and Canton MIL units in out of the way flanks that still need to be covered, and/or stacked with other Nationalist units that can take any loss to the hex, as if these units are killed they can never be rebuilt. Conversely the Chungking MIL needs to be in the center of the action as it is strong and cheap, however with the new map it returns to the map farther away than it used to, so it too should probably be treated more as a reserve type unit. The GARRisons should get killed over and over again in any city in the way of the Japanese.

I think with this map I would be tempted to hold the Pearl ? river in front of Canton to force the Japanese to dig me out, and to keep the Japanese Garrison in Canton (they can't afford to garrison it lightly) in a Chinese ZoC so they won't count towards the anti-PARTisan garrison count. If the Japanese built a Mech division I would abandon this idea though. I would also hold the Chang-sha area, and have a few units to help hold the flanks of Si-An. With both sides I would convert the CAV corps to a pair of cavalry divisions for raids in the mountains, and for dealing with such from the other side. The Japanese ones would be backed by ground support factors and later potentially ATR supply and would be difficult to dislodge from almost anywhere.

Thanks for your input. I have virtually nothing for the Chinese AIO, other than what exists in this thread.

I have decided to handle all the Chinese units under a single AIO, rather than split them off and somehow associate them with the USSR AIO. Mostly that has to do with Chinese production and supply, but also because the Nationalists and Commnists have a common front against a common enemy (the Japanese). I will use 2 Field Marshal decision makers (FMs) for the Chinese which will have to coordinate with each other along the common front line.

They will also coordinate with other Allied AIOs through their Foreign Liaisons (FLs). That will handle both coordination with the USSR and the CW & USA which may have units working with the Chinese (e.g., Stilwell).




iamspamus -> RE: AI for MWiF - China (4/29/2007 2:15:45 AM)

I don't know the programing aspect of the game, but seems to me that Chicomms and Nats should be competing against each other and with the Japanese.
Jason

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: trees
going way back to Patrice's first post in this thread ... if I recall correctly, any objectives controlled by the Chinese Communists are counted towards the Russian victory total?

If this is so, the ChiComms should be run by the Russian AIO along the lines of an aligned minor. The end of the game can see the ChiComms loosely coordinating with the Russians on a race to Shanghai before the Nationalists, or having Russian bombers groundstriking Japanese targets while Mao approaches a Japanese held Vladivostok, for example.

A key tactic for the Nationalists is to use the Shanghai, Peking and Canton MIL units in out of the way flanks that still need to be covered, and/or stacked with other Nationalist units that can take any loss to the hex, as if these units are killed they can never be rebuilt. Conversely the Chungking MIL needs to be in the center of the action as it is strong and cheap, however with the new map it returns to the map farther away than it used to, so it too should probably be treated more as a reserve type unit. The GARRisons should get killed over and over again in any city in the way of the Japanese.

I think with this map I would be tempted to hold the Pearl ? river in front of Canton to force the Japanese to dig me out, and to keep the Japanese Garrison in Canton (they can't afford to garrison it lightly) in a Chinese ZoC so they won't count towards the anti-PARTisan garrison count. If the Japanese built a Mech division I would abandon this idea though. I would also hold the Chang-sha area, and have a few units to help hold the flanks of Si-An. With both sides I would convert the CAV corps to a pair of cavalry divisions for raids in the mountains, and for dealing with such from the other side. The Japanese ones would be backed by ground support factors and later potentially ATR supply and would be difficult to dislodge from almost anywhere.

Thanks for your input. I have virtually nothing for the Chinese AIO, other than what exists in this thread.

I have decided to handle all the Chinese units under a single AIO, rather than split them off and somehow associate them with the USSR AIO. Mostly that has to do with Chinese production and supply, but also because the Nationalists and Commnists have a common front against a common enemy (the Japanese). I will use 2 Field Marshal decision makers (FMs) for the Chinese which will have to coordinate with each other along the common front line.

They will also coordinate with other Allied AIOs through their Foreign Liaisons (FLs). That will handle both coordination with the USSR and the CW & USA which may have units working with the Chinese (e.g., Stilwell).





Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: AI for MWiF - China (4/29/2007 7:26:04 AM)

Here are 2 screen shots of a quick and dirty set up for the Nationalist Chinese. The Communists would be placed NW of the Nationalists to entend the common front line.

First is the southern portion of the line. I figure it is difficult for the Chinese to contain the Japanese beach heads here because there are so many of them. In stead I set up a line farther back to protect the resource that the Cnaton militia is sitting on. The cavalry is a quasi-reserve in that it could be brought over to help defend if needed - threatening to cut the Japanese supply line.

[image]local://upfiles/16701/09E342C971D94124A1ED517020D4A061.jpg[/image]




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