This should convince any lingering doubters...

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Ron Saueracker
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This should convince any lingering doubters...

Post by Ron Saueracker »

Where is Frag, he needs to see this. No such thing as Uber CAP vs strikes my butt![8D] This is from one of the AARs, Artez's I think. There can be no question this needs attention.

Take it away boys! I'm beating a dead horse here but apparently a lot of horses need a good whoopin' around here to illuminate the issues Man, this is soooo bad it's funny.[:D]




...and than US CV fleet reacted to the enemy CV's... This is the correct timeline for the battle in question... US Fleet struck first blows...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 92,90

Japanese aircraft
A6M3 Zero x 18
A6M5 Zeke x 18
A6M3a Zero x 228

Allied aircraft
TBM Avenger x 27

"Tarry Ho! Yankee devils berow!"

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3a Zero: 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
TBM Avenger: 27 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 92,90

Japanese aircraft
A6M3 Zero x 18
A6M5 Zeke x 18
A6M3a Zero x 228

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 9
SBD Dauntless x 33
TBM Avenger x 18

Stiwe moa Yankee Devils up high...John Wayne you die!

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3a Zero: 1 destroyed, 4 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 9 destroyed
SBD Dauntless: 22 destroyed
TBM Avenger: 16 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 92,90

Japanese aircraft
A6M3 Zero x 18
A6M5 Zeke x 18
A6M3a Zero x 227

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 7
F6F Hellcat x 43
SBD Dauntless x 67
TBF Avenger x 18
TBM Avenger x 54

"Oh, more berow again. Is it not providence Americans stwikes wait for us to finish off one gwoup befowa attacking? Banzai. Stupid round eyes! Gives me an idea foa post woa moving pictures...we will make Kung fu movies whewa Japanese hewo takes on hundweds of enemies that neva attack at same time! Haa haa!"

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3 Zero: 5 destroyed, 1 damaged
A6M3a Zero: 30 destroyed, 10 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 7 destroyed
F6F Hellcat: 43 destroyed
SBD Dauntless: 47 destroyed
TBF Avenger: 18 destroyed
TBM Avenger: 52 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 92,90

Japanese aircraft
A6M3 Zero x 6
A6M5 Zeke x 9
A6M3a Zero x 113

Allied aircraft
F6F Hellcat x 4
TBM Avenger x 9

"Haa ha! To the east..."

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 1 destroyed
A6M3a Zero: 4 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F6F Hellcat: 3 destroyed
TBM Avenger: 9 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 92,90

Japanese aircraft
A6M3 Zero x 9
A6M5 Zeke x 12
A6M3a Zero x 141

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 9
SBD Dauntless x 34
TBF Avenger x 15

"Too the west! Ha! Gonna make Crint Eastwood movies too...and no roundeye need reroad! Haaha!"

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3a Zero: 10 destroyed, 4 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 9 destroyed
SBD Dauntless: 34 destroyed
TBF Avenger: 15 destroyed

...not a single penetrated the Japanese CAP...

...than it was time for the Japanese navy to launch their assaults...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 95,90

Japanese aircraft
A6M3 Zero x 9
A6M5 Zeke x 9
D3A Val x 16
A6M3a Zero x 77
B5N Kate x 82

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 116
F6F Hellcat x 100

Yeehaaw! Look at those dumb bastards burn!

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3 Zero: 9 destroyed
A6M5 Zeke: 9 destroyed
D3A Val: 16 destroyed
A6M3a Zero: 77 destroyed
B5N Kate: 81 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 26 destroyed, 8 damaged
F6F Hellcat: 13 destroyed, 7 damaged

Allied Ships
CVE Prince William

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 95,90

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 22
B5N Kate x 24

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 42
F6F Hellcat x 43

Green Base, this is Black Puddin' 5. Something weird just happenned. Just as we were shooting down the last nip...shiite, I got 14 myself, the air kinda turnd all greenish-yeller. Then we was flying 6000 feet higher and 12 miles east of where we was. Hoooey, Dang, another mess of fish head eating bastards. Lets go boys! Check your ammo![8|]

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3a Zero: 20 destroyed
B5N Kate: 24 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 10 destroyed, 4 damaged
F6F Hellcat: 5 destroyed, 4 damaged

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 95,90

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 3
B5N Kate x 37

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 39
F6F Hellcat x 41

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3a Zero: 2 destroyed
B5N Kate: 34 destroyed

Black Puddin 5 to Green Base...I don't know what's goin' on but the puke colored thingy happened again a suddenly we was right in the middle of still more Japs! Sorry Riceball, Tojo don't get his laubdry today!"
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 4 destroyed, 1 damaged
F6F Hellcat: 1 damaged

Allied Ships
CVE Nassau

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 95,90

Japanese aircraft
D3A Val x 26
A6M3a Zero x 7
B5N Kate x 18

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 37
F6F Hellcat x 41

Yeeee.......

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val: 25 destroyed
A6M3a Zero: 6 destroyed
B5N Kate: 18 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 8 destroyed
F6F Hellcat: 4 destroyed, 1 damaged

Allied Ships
CVE Chenango
CVE Nassau

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 95,90

Japanese aircraft
B5N Kate x 4

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 44
F6F Hellcat x 39

....haaaaaaaaaawwwww!

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N Kate: 4 destroyed


...and than the US Fleet launched an combined assault...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 92,90

Japanese aircraft
A6M3 Zero x 7
A6M5 Zeke x 11
A6M3a Zero x 113

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 6
F6F Hellcat x 23
SBD Dauntless x 30

"Stupid....
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 1 destroyed
A6M3a Zero: 13 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 6 destroyed
F6F Hellcat: 19 destroyed
SBD Dauntless: 5 destroyed, 1 damaged

...and than it was Japanese turn to try their luck...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 94,90

Japanese aircraft
A6M3 Zero x 3
A6M5 Zeke x 6
A6M3a Zero x 54
B5N Kate x 14

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 54
F6F Hellcat x 45

Flandersaki!"

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3 Zero: 3 destroyed
A6M5 Zeke: 6 destroyed
A6M3a Zero: 52 destroyed
B5N Kate: 9 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 9 destroyed, 4 damaged
F6F Hellcat: 6 destroyed, 6 damaged

Allied Ships
CVE Copahee
CVE Chenango
CVE Suwannee

....both suffering heavy casualties in 1st day of the combat...

Japanese also tried to launch LBA assault from Tarawa...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 94,90

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 14
G4M1 Betty x 10
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 3

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 45
F6F Hellcat x 39

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3a Zero: 10 destroyed
G4M1 Betty: 7 destroyed
Ki-43-IIa Oscar: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 7 destroyed, 4 damaged
F6F Hellcat: 3 destroyed, 1 damaged


...luckily this one too was struck down.

...Second day of the battle was not as bloody... the IJN CV's launched an offensive againts transport TF heading towards Baker Island (carrying 3rd USCM division and some SeaBee units).

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Day Air attack on TF at 95,94

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 4
B5N Kate x 8

Allied aircraft
F6F Hellcat x 4

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3a Zero: 2 destroyed
B5N Kate: 2 destroyed, 3 damaged


Allied Ships
AK John H. Couch, Bomb hits 1
AK John P. Holland
AK John S. Casement, Bomb hits 1, on fire


Allied ground losses:
88 casualties reported

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 96,95

Japanese aircraft
G4M2 Betty x 6

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 2
F6F Hellcat x 16

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M2 Betty: 6 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F6F Hellcat: 3 damaged

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 95,94

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 4
B5N Kate x 3

Allied aircraft
F6F Hellcat x 4

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N Kate: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F6F Hellcat: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
AK Glenn Curtiss, Bomb hits 2


Allied ground losses:
19 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

....so that was the end of 1st round of blows... Quite a few of my Carriers are now depleted but there are some fully operational CV's left too... I don't know whether he will stick around Baker Island and if he does than there will be heavy battles raging there in forthcoming turns too..!!! MY FAVOURITE PART IS THIS STATEMENT.... ...the odd thing is that not a single CV was hit and still total loss of planes was over 1000!!!.

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Oliver Heindorf
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RE: This should convince any lingering doubters...

Post by Oliver Heindorf »

[:D]
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denisonh
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RE: This should convince any lingering doubters...

Post by denisonh »

If CAP was that effective, why did the Allies have so much trouble with Kamikazes in 1945?

Maybe on to something Ron......[:D]
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Ron Saueracker
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RE: This should convince any lingering doubters...

Post by Ron Saueracker »

Maybe on to something Ron......



Really?[:)] What a great example, eh?
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RE: This should convince any lingering doubters...

Post by Sneer »

few such battles and japan lost naval war :-) without loosing single carrier :-)
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RE: This should convince any lingering doubters...

Post by jwilkerson »

You added those "Yankee Devil" comments ... but that's ok - they help with the "gallows humor" part ...

But are we really surprised after all we've seen before ? Maybe some of the newer players are - but as you said we've been around the farm with this one. Large air battles ( 50+ aircraft on both sides ) don't work - stated solution is - avoid them ! That is the status as of 1.6 release per my memory.

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RE: This should convince any lingering doubters...

Post by rtrapasso »

Large air battles ( 50+ aircraft on both sides ) don't work - stated solution is - avoid them !

Rather hard to avoid with the Deathstar floating around.
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RE: This should convince any lingering doubters...

Post by Ron Saueracker »

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

You added those "Yankee Devil" comments ... but that's ok - they help with the "gallows humor" part ...

But are we really surprised after all we've seen before ? Maybe some of the newer players are - but as you said we've been around the farm with this one. Large air battles ( 50+ aircraft on both sides ) don't work - stated solution is - avoid them ! That is the status as of 1.6 release per my memory.


Could not resist when I saw this one. Sorry. Darn I miss Frag....[;)]
Large air battles ( 50+ aircraft on both sides ) don't work - stated solution is - avoid them ! That is the status as of 1.6 release per my memory.

Are you friggin' serious? This was the official response and "remedy"? Good Gawd. Shameful.[8|]
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RE: This should convince any lingering doubters...

Post by Gen.Hoepner »

Nik's Mod should be the best work around for this issue
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Ron Saueracker
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RE: This should convince any lingering doubters...

Post by Ron Saueracker »

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner

Nik's Mod should be the best work around for this issue

I'd like to see a direct comparison between this stock version and Nik's mod. Is there any out there that have a big CV battle run using the stock and Nik's?
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RE: This should convince any lingering doubters...

Post by ChezDaJez »

Ron,

We agree once again (it's getting to be a habit). CAP is definitely screwed up. I think that the main reasons for it are as follows:

1. Super-duper fighter direction on both sides- Every single plane on CAP gets to engage regardless of what direction or altitude the strike came from.

2. CAP gets multiple passes at the enemy, but the enemy escorts seem to only get one pass.

3. CAP doesn't have to reload or refuel.

The game treats all CAP as being airborne all the time when IRL there were only a few planes on actual airborne CAP at any one time. The others were kept on deck in a ready status and would cycle. A carrier might have 27 fighters assigned, for example but only 4-8 would actually be airborne at any one time and another 4-8 on ready alert. The ready alert would launch on CAP as the airborne CAP ran low on fuel. The ready CAP would also launch upon detection of an inbound raid.

So for the game, only a 25-50% portion of CAP should be airborne and thus in position to intercept at any one time. Ready CAP should launch only when an inbound raid is detected and there should be a significant chance that they don't intercept based on the height, speed and early warning time of the incoming raid. Even the airborne CAP should have a significant chance (10% allied, 20% Japanese to reflect differences in fighter direction and radar) at not intercepting simply due to the possibillity of being out of position, at the wrong altitude or even off on a wild goose chase.

Once a raid has been intercepted, that portion of CAP that did the intercepting should be excluded from attacking the next raid to reflect the amount of time required to land and refuel. The ready CAP that launched against the 1st group could intercept, assuming it did not actually intercept the 1st group.

Also there should be a significant chance that the CAP cannot penetrate the escort shield, assuming there are enough escorts to do that. The bombers would then be free to carry out their mission.

I think that just these changes would greatly reduce the uber effectiveness of CAP as it now stands. I do not favor reducing the number of planes that can be assigned to CAP, just the number that can intercept any one raid.

Its too bad that CAP routines are hard coded. I think it would a relatively easy and straight forward change.

Chez
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RE: This should convince any lingering doubters...

Post by Speedysteve »

For a look at Nik's stuff see our AAR. There's even a Midway style battle that Nik managed to put together (not in our game I meight add).

Ron - my view on it is that is the necessary people concerned have acknowledged in the past that LARGE scale air battles do lead to bloody results.
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RE: This should convince any lingering doubters...

Post by rtrapasso »

Ron - my view on it is that is the necessary people concerned have acknowledged in the past that LARGE scale air battles do lead to bloody results.

I don't think that was his point. It wasn't that the fight was bloody, but super-efficient - almost NO airplanes penetrated the other side's super-CAP with almost every attacker being shot down. This kind of super-efficiency just never happened in WW2.
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RE: This should convince any lingering doubters...

Post by Speedysteve »

Hi rtrapasso -

2 points:

1. A lot of the above involves large no's of aircraft hence my point on large scale A2A.

2. The one's that don't involve 50+ aircraft follow examples like below = planes get through. A few here:

I hope these PBEM's don't mind me copying these few examples:

PZB:

G4M1 Betty x 13

Allied aircraft
F4U-1 Corsair x 6
Hurricane II x 10

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 5 destroyed, 3 damaged

Allied Ships
AK Zachary Taylor, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
AK Stephen M. White, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

----------

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 8

Allied aircraft
Hudson I x 12

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
Hudson I: 1 destroyed

Japanese Ships
AP Chojun Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
MSW W.26, Bomb hits 1, on fire
PC Ch 32, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

-----------

From Aztez vs Vorsteher -

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 17
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 7

Allied aircraft
Blenheim IV x 19
P-40B Tomahawk x 12
B-24D Liberator x 6

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed
Ki-43-Ib Oscar: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Blenheim IV: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged
P-40B Tomahawk: 2 damaged
B-24D Liberator: 1 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
33 casualties reported

Airbase hits 2
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 8

---------------

From Gen. Hoepner vs MC:

Day Air attack on TF, near Darwin at 36,84

Japanese aircraft
A5M4 Claude x 9
A6M2 Zero x 15

Allied aircraft
B-17C Fortress x 4

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-17C Fortress: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged

Japanese Ships
PG Zuiko Maru

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-17C Fortress bombing at 5000 feet

Regards,

Steven
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RE: This should convince any lingering doubters...

Post by DFalcon »

I would agree with Speedy. The problem is with large airbattles. Smaller actions tend to work better. I also suspect it has something to do with multiple air groups, but have not tested this.
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RE: This should convince any lingering doubters...

Post by Speedysteve »

It's all been recognised before though by Erik.

A quote from Star Wars "move along, move along".

[;)]
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RE: This should convince any lingering doubters...

Post by spence »

quote: The game treats all CAP as being airborne all the time when IRL there were only a few planes on actual airborne CAP at any one time. The others were kept on deck in a ready status and would cycle. unquoe

quote: Once a raid has been intercepted, that portion of CAP that did the intercepting should be excluded from attacking the next raid to reflect the amount of time required to land and refuel. unquote

At Midway the Japanese had to contend with a long series of attacks by various Midway based bombers and carrier TBDs. It ought to be noted that every single one of these "uncoordinated" attacks managed to launch weapons at the Japanese CVs
(perhaps not very skillfully but launched nevertheless - skill at weapons delivery is accounted for by experience in the game). According to "Shattered Sword" the above quoted factors, combined with the need to warm engines on deck on Japanese CVs (as opposed to in the hangar deck as US CVs) delayed the Japanese from launching their doctrinal mass attack until they were ultimately devastated by the Enterprise/Yorktown SBDs.

THE GAME MECHANICS MAKE NO PROVISION FOR THIS EFFECT. Since the Japanese changed their doctrine subsequent to Midway I suspect there is something to this foible.

Geez how do you make those little boxes for the quotes
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RE: This should convince any lingering doubters...

Post by mc3744 »

This was interesting ... and sad. [:(]

I already see my future in the game vs. Hoepner [;)] Super DS exchanging similar blows.

I'm also worried but the fading away of Matrix guys. I haven't see them in a while [&:] [:(]
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RE: This should convince any lingering doubters...

Post by Gen.Hoepner »

ORIGINAL: mc3744



I already see my future in the game vs. Hoepner [;)] Super DS exchanging similar blows.



Sure..if i do remember to check 100 times my squadrons orders[:@]

However, i think at this stage of development the game won't change much. When and if the code will be released we'll have what we want, imho
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Ron Saueracker
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RE: This should convince any lingering doubters...

Post by Ron Saueracker »

Ron - my view on it is that is the necessary people concerned have acknowledged in the past that LARGE scale air battles do lead to bloody results.

Well, that being said, perhaps Mike can fiddle with the CAP vs strike routines when he has some free time (which the poor guy has very little if any of I'd bet[8D]). I sincerely believe he is a fan of this campaign if not the game (must be a pain in the keester for him) so I'm hoping he will be abe to revisit it at some point as he did with ASW.
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