A Modest Proposel

[Richard III]

I`ve been involved with playing and suporting WITP and UV since inception and even designed the alternate UV full Campaign for it on Spooky`s site. I posted here as " Black Cat " until a system crash lost my password, and since the Get New Password function doesn`t work I`ve re- registered with the current Name.

I mentioned this because, hopefully, the experience and time I`ve been around gives me a bit of credibility on the Games.

First, I`m _very disappointed_ , as are others, with the direction the Devs. have taken WITP though the changes to the units, which end up as changes to ahisorical and inaccurate Gameplay, the B-29 one just being the latest. In fact in the years I`ve been around Computer Games I`ve never seen a Simulation turned in a Game, always the reverse....

The reason many are unhappy is simple : WITP was originally designed as a SIMULATION of the Pacific War. This was stated in the pre games sales notes and re-inforced in the early changes to the code and Gameplay, and in fact was often stated as the Goal both by Billings and Heath no less on these very Forums long ago.

These Quick & Dirty changes, and the current push by folks, both Matrix posters and " Fans" to " it`s just a Game" is really sad, the more so since it is really unncessary to Dumb Down the Simulation since simple changes to the Victory Conditions would allow the Japanese player to " Win " by not letting the Allied Player achive certain goals. However, that doesn`t seem of interest to the Matrix Devs.[&:]

However that`s not my point. This is:

Since matrix doesn`t seem interested in supporting the Game as the Sim it was designed to be, and the reason many of us bought it , why not release the editing and modding tools that Mike uses to make these changes so people can customize the Game the way they want.

The ability certainly exists in the WITP Community to refine and improve the Sim, and as everyone knows the ability to truly Mod the Code will give real legs to the Software. Witness Doom, Quake and the Civ series of Games to name but a few.

Hell, even sell a modding tool kit if necessary.

Edited for spelling

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: Richard III

I`ve been involved with playing and suporting WITP and UV since inception and even designed the alternate UV full Campaign for it on Spooky`s site. I posted here as " Black Cat " until a system crash lost my password, and since the Get New Password function doesn`t work I`ve re- registered with the current Name.

I mentioned this because, hopefully, the experience and time I`ve been around gives me a bit of credibility on the Games.

First, I`m _very disappointed_ , as are others, with the direction the Devs. have taken WITP though the changes to the units, which end up as changes to ahisorical and inaccurate Gameplay, the B-29 one just being the latest. In fact in the years I`ve been around Computer Games I`ve never seen a Simulation turned in a Game, always the reverse....

The reason many are unhappy is simple : WITP was originally designed as a SIMULATION of the Pacific War. This was stated in the pre games sales notes and re-inforced in the early changes to the code and Gameplay, and in fact was often stated as the Goal both by Billings and Heath no less on these very Forums long ago.

These Quick & Dirty changes, and the current push by folks, both Matrix posters and " Fans" to " it`s just a Game" is really sad, the more so since it is really unncessary to Dumb Down the Simulation since simple changes to the Victory Conditions would allow the Japanese player to " Win " by not letting the Allied Player achive certain goals. However, that doesn`t seem of interest to the Matrix Devs.[&:]

However that`s not my point. This is:

Since matrix doesn`t seem interested in supporting the Game as the Sim it was designed to be, and the reason many of us bought it , why not release the editing and modding tools that Mike uses to make these changes so people can customize the Game the way they want.

The ability certainly exists in the WITP Community to refine and improve the Sim, and as everyone knows the ability to truly Mod the Code will give real legs to the Software. Witness Doom, Quake and the Civ series of Games to name but a few.

Hell, even sell a modding tool kit if necessary.

Edited for spelling

Agreed,

Another thought, I have only been playing WitP for a little less than a year - but the majority of posts that I have read complaining about where the game is going suggests to me that patches have fixed known bugs AND changed the original design.

Perhaps it would be worth whorth while to put out a comprehensive patch to be installed over a fresh copy of the game that would ONLY fix the bugs that have been identified but leaving the original game otherwise intact?

B

[Richard III]

B, Great Idea !! [;)]

That thought for a seperate " Enhancement Patch " that just delt with changes to the Combat and other Gameplay routines was put forth a long time ago by Me, Ron S. and Mike S. among others, with pure Bug Fixs in a seperate patch. so you did _ not _ have to have unwanted changes to game Play to get a Bug Fix.

Perhaps they can re-visit that idea with your excellent proposel

[kafka]

Yep, why not release a developer edition of the game including all the tools necessary to customize the game, including a map editor to create new maps? Release a WITP SDK, best a C++ API compatible with MS VC 6.

[Terminus]

As long as people are still buying the game, that's not going to happen...

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

As long as people are still buying the game, that's not going to happen...

...does that mean we have to organise a protest??![:D]

B

[Terminus]

Yeah, protest against WitP still being for sale. You guys go ahead, and let me know how it turns out...

[Bodhi]

ORIGINAL: kafka

Yep, why not release a developer edition of the game including all the tools necessary to customize the game, including a map editor to create new maps? Release a WITP SDK, best a C++ API compatible with MS VC 6.

Probably because the cost to do so would never be justified by the extra sales that any mods would bring in.

[Tankerace]

Let me also put it in a way people can understand. You want those things for the modders. I am the dev of WPO, and I don't even have access to that stuff. If I want a change, I ask Mike. If they won't let me have it, why would they let the community? Cost. And threat of piracy. And I for one can't say their fears aren't completely unjustified.

[Tankerace]

And also along with the piracy thing, that would create 2 vulnerable games, as WPO and WitP use the same engine. It would be bad form to release while they are selling, especially with WPO so close to release.

[Bodhi]

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

I am the dev of WPO, and I don't even have access to that stuff. If I want a change, I ask Mike.

Then, using the accepted use of the two terms, maybe Mike is the developer and you're the designer?

[Tankerace]

Well, let me rephrase. If I want a code change. All the rest of the stuff I did. But, he is the programmer, and has access to the code, whereas I, the not programmer, does not.

I was speaking in context of code, which is what an SDK would do.Anything else people want to modify in WitP, they can do that now without an SDK. Its just a matter of time and effort.

[Richard III]

ORIGINAL: Bodhi

ORIGINAL: kafka

Yep, why not release a developer edition of the game including all the tools necessary to customize the game, including a map editor to create new maps? Release a WITP SDK, best a C++ API compatible with MS VC 6.

Probably because the cost to do so would never be justified by the extra sales that any mods would bring in.

I`m not proposing any protest, just some common sense that will forfill the promises Matrix made in regard to WITP as a SIMULATION to us who bought the Game in good faith and waited over a year through endless patches to play it as that.

Id Software, which open sourced the code for both Doom and Quake seem to doing OK, wouldn`t you say ? The ability to Mod the Game had added legs to their old products and created a MASSIVE Customer /Fan Base, as opposed to the 20+ guys trading one liners with each other on this Forum.

You really think they are selling many copies of the Game at this point ?.... and any Scum Bag Pirates need only buy a copy with the Key Code. Please..that`s a weak arguement.

BTW: Fraxis/2K Games will release a huge moders tool kit for Civ 4 next week, and will likly open source the Code at years end. I guess the sellers of 6 million copies of the Civ Games don`t know what their doing either....[8|]

I don`t care how they achive it, Realism Patch, etc, allow the Game to be played as it was designed before all the " Game " tinkering.

Thank You.

[Terminus]

ORIGINAL: Richard III

You really think they are selling many copies of the Game at this point ?.... and any Scum Bag Pirates need only buy a copy with the Key Code. Please..that`s a weak arguement.

If they only sell ONE copy of the game a month, that's enough...

and will likly open source the Code at years end.

Yeah, sure they will. Get real...

[Richard III]

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

Well, let me rephrase. If I want a code change. All the rest of the stuff I did. But, he is the programmer, and has access to the code, whereas I, the not programmer, does not.

I was speaking in context of code, which is what an SDK would do.Anything else people want to modify in WitP, they can do that now without an SDK. Its just a matter of time and effort.

You know, and now you know I know, that major aspects of WITP are hardcoded for specific results, , often by date, especially by Country, including the way the Japanese CV`s react in a CV vs CV battle and NO amount of tinkering in the Editor are going to chage key aspects of the Game, especially combat , that Mike has " altered " for " Balance " AKA Skewing Historical Reality to please some vocal PBEM gamesters and / or promoting WITP as a Fun lightweight " Game " to sell more copies to the non hardcore..

[Richard III]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

ORIGINAL: Richard III

You really think they are selling many copies of the Game at this point ?.... and any Scum Bag Pirates need only buy a copy with the Key Code. Please..that`s a weak arguement.

If they only sell ONE copy of the game a month, that's enough...

and will likly open source the Code at years end.

Yeah, sure they will. Get real...

I`m very Real and actually have information unlike your Opinions.

If you can spare the time from posting here 10 times a day ( 5395 post in 6 months [X(][:D] ) do a search on Civ Fantics : fraxis, Soren , 2K Games. ... report back ( with at least 10 daily valuable posts.....)


Thanks !

[Terminus]

Well, it's good that you're so wise and all-knowing. Buh-bye!

[Tankerace]

LOL. I can name by the bushel games that the devs promised an SDK that never came, or was dumbed down to such a way that sweeping changes like what you want with WitP can not be done. Besides, WitP and WPO combined will never sell 6 million copies. Thus, every penny made from each sale counts more, and cannot be risked.

[Burzmali]

Tankerace, how about the converse, how many games can you name that released an SDK only to be done in by pirates?

[Tankerace]

Truthfully? None. But then most major SDKs and/or open source is done at least a year or two (or more) after the product has stopped selling in major quantities.

Still, if you spent a over a year doing a game, would you want the company to release the code just as your game was going to market? Or would you at least like it to sell some first? Remember, in terms of code, you can't think only of WitP but of WitP and WPO. The source code to one allows the source to the other, even though the games are different.

I agree, several games improve with the SDK and code released (Mig Alley and Rowan's BoB to name but two of them), but they are usually released long after the game is released.