WITP Database Editor Questions

[dereck]

I'd like to know if any of you "moders" out there could help me understand the relationship between certain database fields so I could make some modifications in my scenario I've been working on to play next time I restart the war.

I'd like to know the relationships of the "Accuracy" , "Effect", "Penetration", "Anti-Armor" and "Anti-Soft" fields.

Hypothetical device "GIGO" has:
- Accuracy - 20
- Effect - 3219
- Penetration - 850
- Anti-Armor - 43
- Anti-Soft - 161

Questions:

1. If I want to increase the accuracy, what does doubling the accuracy do? Conversely, what does halving the accuracy accomplish?

2. What does "Effect" actually do? What does increasing or decreasing the value do and how much does the value have to change to actually have an effect.

3. Penetration - that's how many mm of armor that can be penetrated, correct? If that's the case it's pretty self-evident what changes to that value will do.

4. What does anti-armor and anti-soft do?

I'd appreciate any clarifications and be willing to discuss my intentions off-line via PM or e-mail with anybody interested.

[DFalcon]

There is the million dollar question right there.

[dereck]

*bump*

Nobody going to add anything to help me understand any of this?

[Tankerace]

Its been my experience that the numbers aren't an exact figure, but a lower number (say 26) is more accurate than a higher number (say, 44).

Here is how it works

Accuracy = a rough calculation of the weapons accuracy. Not sure exactly how this is determined, my version is simply how does the weapon I am adding compare to a similar weapon already in.

Effect = this is the weight of the shell fired by the weapon, or in a bomb the weight. Measured in lbs. So, a 12 pounder gun should have an effect of 12.

Anti armor = a general rating of this weapons ability to damage hard targets, such as tanks.

Anti soft = a general rating of this weapons ability to damage soft targets, such as infantry and artillery.


Penetration = the amount of unsloped armor, in milimeters, that the weapon can penetrate at point blank range.

The anti soft and anti hard help evaluate the guns performance. This helps differentiate different guns. For instance, the US 76mm Gun technically has a heavier shell than the US 75mm Gun, and can penetrate more armor, but is not as effective as the 75mm Gun against infantry.

I'll bet why nobody responded is all of this information is in the Editor Manual.

[dereck]

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

Its been my experience that the numbers aren't an exact figure, but a lower number (say 26) is more accurate than a higher number (say, 44).

Here is how it works

Accuracy = a rough calculation of the weapons accuracy. Not sure exactly how this is determined, my version is simply how does the weapon I am adding compare to a similar weapon already in.

Effect = this is the weight of the shell fired by the weapon, or in a bomb the weight. Measured in lbs. So, a 12 pounder gun should have an effect of 12.

Anti armor = a general rating of this weapons ability to damage hard targets, such as tanks.

Anti soft = a general rating of this weapons ability to damage soft targets, such as infantry and artillery.


Penetration = the amount of unsloped armor, in milimeters, that the weapon can penetrate at point blank range.

The anti soft and anti hard help evaluate the guns performance. This helps differentiate different guns. For instance, the US 76mm Gun technically has a heavier shell than the US 75mm Gun, and can penetrate more armor, but is not as effective as the 75mm Gun against infantry.

I'll bet why nobody responded is all of this information is in the Editor Manual.

So, for my hypothetical GIGO of:

Hypothetical device "GIGO" has:
- Accuracy - 20
- Effect - 3219
- Penetration - 850
- Anti-Armor - 43
- Anti-Soft - 161

if I were to change the "Accuracy" from 20 to 10 I'd double it's accuracy?

[Tankerace]

I wont say double its accuracy, but it would be more accurate.... at least I think so. I tend to find that light DD guns are in the 100 range, BB guns in the 25-40 range, etc. I think its all really relative to the size of the device (load cost, shell weight, etc).

[dereck]

Just so I can have an example I can understand, if I were to take this item:

074 -1.1in Mk 1 AA Gun
------Accuracy: 75

From what you said, if I wanted to make the gun MORE accurate I'd change the 75 to say 60 or 50, but if I wanted to make it LESS accurate I'd increase the value to 100 or 125?

I'm just confused because that seems backwards.

[Tankerace]

Perhaps I should state it another way.... The larger the gun, the smaller the number. Not exactly sure how it affects it (truth be told I have no idea how the original values were come up with). I just now that when I increased the number for WPO, the weapon's accuracy seemed to decrease. Not exactly rock solid, but that's what I have got. What I would really reccommend, so as not to break the game engine, is to find a similar weapon. So say you are creating a 3.5" AA gun (assume). Look at the accuracy of a 4 inch gun, and of a 3 inch gun, and split the difference.

[sspahr]

For naval guns, I think accuracy is the number of rounds the gun can fire in ten minutes. I was looking at navweaps.org checking the database and I noticed that usually the rate of fire per minute given at that site, times ten, is usually the accuracy rating for that gun in WITP.

[Tankerace]

That is a very definate possibility, which would make sense... How that relates to accuracy I dunno, but whatever works.

[doktorblood]

For Naval guns, Dual Purpose and AA guns ... it's a ratio.

Accuracy = 10 x RPM Effect = Weight of projectile in pounds.

5"/38 Mk 12 Accuracy 200 (10 x 20 rpm) Effect 55 (fired a 55 LB projectile)

The numbers are adjusted for some weapons like auto-cannon AA guns, but the ratio remains the same.

Take 40MM Bofors gun...160 rpm cyclic rate of fire ... 2 LB projectile.
Instead of making it 1600 accuracy with a 2 effect they adjusted it to 160 accuracy with 20 effect. Dividing 1600/10 and multiplying 2x10.

20mm Oerlikon 450 rpm cyclic rof .. 3/10 LB projectile. Accuracy of 4500 and effect 3/10 won't work with the game. So divide 4500/50 and multiply 3/10 x 50 and they got a number that will work. Accuracy 90 Effect 15.

Penetration is supposed to be the maximum thickness of armour that the shell will penetrate in millimeters.

Range is per 1000 yards.

Army guns are set up differently.

[tanjman]

dereck,

For torpedoes Accuracy = speed in knots

[dereck]

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

Perhaps I should state it another way.... The larger the gun, the smaller the number. Not exactly sure how it affects it (truth be told I have no idea how the original values were come up with). I just now that when I increased the number for WPO, the weapon's accuracy seemed to decrease. Not exactly rock solid, but that's what I have got. What I would really reccommend, so as not to break the game engine, is to find a similar weapon. So say you are creating a 3.5" AA gun (assume). Look at the accuracy of a 4 inch gun, and of a 3 inch gun, and split the difference.

I'm not trying to ADD weapons to the database but to modify existing ones to what I consider more fair values since I think this game is skewered in favor of one side as it is.

[dereck]

ORIGINAL: sspahr

For naval guns, I think accuracy is the number of rounds the gun can fire in ten minutes. I was looking at navweaps.org checking the database and I noticed that usually the rate of fire per minute given at that site, times ten, is usually the accuracy rating for that gun in WITP.

Is that the correct URL? I tried going there and couldn't find the page.

[Don Bowen]

http://www.navweaps.com/

[dereck]

Thank you Don.

So it appears that the "Accuracy" field is actually a "Rate of Fire" field?

I'm sorry for not grasping this -- yet -- but with the attached spreadsheet below, if my intention had been to increase the accuracy of these guns it sounds like all I've done has slowed their rate of fire, so HOW would I make something already in the database either more accurate, or less accurate? Modify the effect value? Or the penetration value?

For example, device #13 below, the 16 in/50 Mk 7 gun I wanted to modify to reflect the fact that, with radar control it did in fact have pin-point accuracy. I increased the accuracy from 20 to 40 but according to what I'm reading here that has nothing to do with increasing the actual "accuracy" of the item.

[doktorblood]

ORIGINAL: dereck

Thank you Don.

So it appears that the "Accuracy" field is actually a "Rate of Fire" field?

I'm sorry for not grasping this -- yet -- but with the attached spreadsheet below, if my intention had been to increase the accuracy of these guns it sounds like all I've done has slowed their rate of fire, so HOW would I make something already in the database either more accurate, or less accurate? Modify the effect value? Or the penetration value?

For example, device #13 below, the 16 in/50 Mk 7 gun I wanted to modify to reflect the fact that, with radar control it did in fact have pin-point accuracy. I increased the accuracy from 20 to 40 but according to what I'm reading here that has nothing to do with increasing the actual "accuracy" of the item.

For your purposes I think that adjusting the accuracy number would be the way to go. Radar directed gunfire isn't necessarily more accurate, but would provide faster targeting calculations. A 100% increase seems pretty extreme though. A lot of the time advantage gained would be concurrent up by the actual reloading and sighting of the gun.
I'd try a small increase first.

Also ... radar gunfire advantage might be already accounted for in the Combat Result calculations if the appropriate radar equipment is present on the firing ship.

I don't think that the anti-armour / anti-soft fields are used by the Naval gun fire routines.

[dereck]

ORIGINAL: doktorblood

For your purposes I think that adjusting the accuracy number would be the way to go. Radar directed gunfire isn't necessarily more accurate, but would provide faster targeting calculations. A 100% increase seems pretty extreme though. A lot of the time advantage gained would be concurrent up by the actual reloading and sighting of the gun.
I'd try a small increase first.

Also ... radar gunfire advantage might be already accounted for in the Combat Result calculations if the appropriate radar equipment is present on the firing ship.

I don't think that the anti-armour / anti-soft fields are used by the Naval gun fire routines.

I have the anti-armor/anti-soft fields there for shore bombardment. I don't believe the stock values are reflective of the damage a 16 or 14 inch shell will do - I was tired of using 12+ BB to bombard a base and not get rid of any of the CD guns ... these changes did affect that.

I also want to modify AA guns to make them more accurate/effecive after a certain date. Would I modify the "accuracy" or the "range" and "effect" fields to achieve this?









[/quote]

[Tankerace]

Keep in mind though, if you modifty a gun (such as to be more effective at a certain date), you have to make a copy of them, or else you'll have all guns making the change, irregardless of date. Though as for modifying accuracy, the way I would do it is my original way, lower the nimber (i.e. more accurate). This would represent more time to put the gun on target since (such as your 16in gun) you are firign by radar, not just lobbing salvoes this way and that. I say that, because I found in WPO that if I lowered the number, the ship seemed to get more hits vs more misses.

[Tankerace]

ORIGINAL: doktorblood

For Naval guns, Dual Purpose and AA guns ... it's a ratio.

Accuracy = 10 x RPM Effect = Weight of projectile in pounds.

5"/38 Mk 12 Accuracy 200 (10 x 20 rpm) Effect 55 (fired a 55 LB projectile)

The numbers are adjusted for some weapons like auto-cannon AA guns, but the ratio remains the same.

Take 40MM Bofors gun...160 rpm cyclic rate of fire ... 2 LB projectile.
Instead of making it 1600 accuracy with a 2 effect they adjusted it to 160 accuracy with 20 effect. Dividing 1600/10 and multiplying 2x10.

20mm Oerlikon 450 rpm cyclic rof .. 3/10 LB projectile. Accuracy of 4500 and effect 3/10 won't work with the game. So divide 4500/50 and multiply 3/10 x 50 and they got a number that will work. Accuracy 90 Effect 15.

Penetration is supposed to be the maximum thickness of armour that the shell will penetrate in millimeters.

Range is per 1000 yards.

Army guns are set up differently.

Had a feeling it was ROF, but wasn't 100% sure. Still seems a skewed version of doing it though. Thankfully that is pretty much how I did it with WPO, base ROF with a slight "curve" to reflect the guns true accuracy.