Bocage (also hedges and walls)

[Magua]

I'm having a tough time understanding the explanations as to how these features affect LOS and combat. On the Player's Reference Card, for Bocage it says, "Units adjacent to a bocage hexside can be seen, and need not be spotted." It also says "Blocks LOS through," but also says "Doesn't block LOS in which bocage forms a hexside."

It all seems contradictory to me. So I'm hoping that someone can give me the unabridged version of Bocage, Hedges, and Walls 101.


Oh yeah. What the heck does a M-79 have to do with bocage? I don't believe the two were ever in the other's company.
[;)]

Thanx fellas.

[JosephL]

Woot! I get to answer a question I actually know:

What that means is any unit ADJACENT to the bocage can be spotted.

Any unit 1 hex away (for instance in the middle of a bocage ring) is BLOCKED LOS (meaning they can NOT be spotted).

Any unit that is ADJACENT to a border (for instance, one unit is DIRECTLY north of the other and there is a line of boccage connecting them) is automatically spotted (For spotting reasons they are considered adjacent).

The only rule that should be confusing you still (possibly) is that third one:

If you look at a map and look at a boccage hex that travles either due east and west or due north and south you will notice it is a line that extends from one hex to another. There is a chance that two units can be adjacent with that line of boccage blocking them. Contrary to what it looks like, these units are adjacent for spotting reasons but NOT for firing reasons.

-Joe

[Magua]

I still don't get it. The Player's Reference card states that a unit adjacent to a bocage hexside can be seen and need not be spotted. Yet, in the "Type" column it describes bocage as "Blocking."

So what I think it means to say is:

Bocage is blocking terrain. If the LOS passes through the bocage to the unit in that hex, the unit must be spotted. If the LOS does not pass through the bocage, but through a clear hexside, the unit is visible and does not need to be spotted, unless there is some other type of blocking or degrading terrain in the hex.

Most of the bocage in Normandy was like a wall of tangled shrubs, trees and undergrowth. Much of it grew out of a berm that was a tangle of roots. Often these berms themselves were higher than a man's head. It was the density of this stuff that made the hedgerow fighting in Normandy so dangerous. There are many accounts of opposing soldiers being on opposite sides of the same hedgerow and not being able to see each other. Spotting enemy troops behind a bocage hedgerow 100+ yards away was very difficult, and in game terms should require spotting.

So that's why I'm having trouble understanding this. Unless, of course, I do understand it but don't realize that I do.

[crabe tambour]

Hi,
I'm not sure to understand what is what you don't understand....
I try with an example, map 14 :
G5 has no LOS on J7 (bocage between H6/I6 make I6 blocking terrain from G5) And vice versa, of course: bocage between H6/I6 make H6 blocking terrain from J7.
G5 has a LOS on I6 ("Doesn't block LOS in which bocage forms a hexside." ). And I6 has a LOS to G5.
If there is an unspotted axis unit in I6, a US unit in G5 can attempt to spot her. 1 or 2 on 1D6 because bocage makes I6 blocking terrain.

To make short, a hexe is considered blocking terrain if the LOS to to this hexe cross bocage. (or wall, or hedge, or siamese twins elephants alignement etc)

It's the same as usual in fact. It would be the same if I6 was heavy forest, building or giant beans plantation, regarding LOS from G5.
Clear?

[crabe tambour]

ORIGINAL: Magua
It was the density of this stuff that made the hedgerow fighting in Normandy so dangerous.

And don't forget the blackberry bushes. It makes rents in uniforms. THAT was terrible.

[yossarians]

Hmmm, now see MY read was that units in a hex that borders on Bocage can be fired at, but if they're one hex away you can't see them. Same for units firing out--fire through the border if they're right next to it, otherwise no.


But hey, I don't even know what the hell bocage is so ymmv.

[crabe tambour]

Yes you're right yossarians.

For bocage, think about a huge hedge
Pictures here :
http://a.laparra.free.fr/photos/Le%20bocage.JPG
http://www.pluct.net/images/fondecran/f ... is_800.jpg
http://www.panzer-modell.de/dioramen/bocage/03g.jpg
http://www.battlefront.co.nz/Images/Dio ... ama-01.jpg

[Airborne82nd]

Nice pics there! Also, the dioramas are cool. Thanks.

[Magua]

ORIGINAL: crabe tambour

If there is an unspotted axis unit in I6, a US unit in G5 can attempt to spot her. 1 or 2 on 1D6 because bocage makes I6 blocking terrain.

That's exactly what I was trying to get clear -- that a unit directly behind boacage MUST be spotted before it can be attacked. The Player's Reference card seems to say otherwise which just seemed whacky to me.

Thanks fellas. Nice pics Crabe. Either of these where you live? Nice dioramas too.

[JosephL]

As I understood it from Mark, Yossarians is correct.

[Magua]

Okay, now I'm really confused. So I made this example.



In the example above, the green brushy stuff is bocage. Shouldn't counter B have to spot counter A before A can be attacked?

[crabe tambour]

Yes, B has to spot first !
A need to be spotted before being fired by B>> because, A is in blocking terrain>>because the side of the hexe of A is bocage and because the LOS from B to A is crossing this bocage.

Place a C counter in the hex north west from A. B can NOT see C, because, for the same reasons than above, A hexe is blocking terrain.

I notice i was not clear in a precedent post. I do it again :
To make short, a hexe is considered blocking terrain if the LOS to this hexe cross bocage and if this bocage is one side of this hexe .
Sorry if it disturbed you.
It's difficult to paraphrase the rules....

[Magua]

Thanx Crabbe-

You explained it fine, and even better this time. I think the way I was phrasing the question was not very clear, and a number of guys here were answering it in different ways. So I think I was getting myself all turned around.

Are walls and hedges handled the same way?

[CptWaspLuca]

I add a note: obviously if A is marked with a Fired, Move or Assault Move marker A is automatically spotted.

[crabe tambour]

ORIGINAL: Magua

Are walls and hedges handled the same way?

Concerning LOS, Yep. [;)] The exception is when the LOS is traced "along" the hex side (see notes). Blocking for bocage, not for walls, hedges and siemese twins elephant alignements.

[Hannes]

Do you guys also love this "Spotting" rules as much as I do?

[Magua]

You bet. You can never be sure of what you'll be able to do in a turn. Also, running around in the open is foolish and very dangerous, as I would think it should be.

Thanks again to all you guys.

[crabe tambour]

ORIGINAL: Hannes

Do you guys also love this "Spotting" rules as much as I do?

Yep. Really. They are a very ingenious and "elegant" way to translate "Fog of war" in the facts. Much better to me than "?" counters. I like too that units always take the best position (=unspotted). And it's a good game in the game. I can't figure now a tactical game without this spotting rules.

[stanguay]

ORIGINAL: crabe tambour
Yes, B has to spot first !
A need to be spotted before being fired by B>> because, A is in blocking terrain>>because the side of the hexe of A is bocage and because the LOS from B to A is crossing this bocage.

Crabe

I was wondering if A is really in blocking terrain. If B was on the other side, then A would be in open terrain. Bocage is along hexside; it does not confer any "quality" to the hexes behind it. The bocage is not even considered blocking under this situation !

That being said, it does seem logical to me that you indeeed have to spot a unit hiding behind a wall or a bocage so that's what I have used as a rule.

[crabe tambour]

Hi Stephane.
[&:] All that was clear to me before this discussion.... Gasp....
What I see is that :
- Boccage type is blocking on the chart
- The LOS from B to a hexe North West from A is Blocked. But the Los from B to A is not (like if there was a building in A hexe, right?)
- So I assume that A hexe is CONSIDERED blocking terrain when you sight from B.

For LOS purposes and spotting attempts, A hexe works like a blocking terrain, view from B. No?
As you say, A hexe "IS" not a blocking terrain. It's just considered blocking on certain condition. Right?