Victory Conditions: One Man's Views

Gary Grigsby's World At War gives you the chance to really run a world war. History is yours to write and things may turn out differently. The Western Allies may be conquered by Germany, or Japan may defeat China. With you at the controls, leading the fates of nations and alliances. Take command in this dynamic turn-based game and test strategies that long-past generals and world leaders could only dream of. Now anything is possible in this new strategic offering from Matrix Games and 2 by 3 Games.

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lkendter
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RE: Victory Conditions: One Man's Views

Post by lkendter »

ORIGINAL: Uncle_Joe

The other (slightly more radical) suggestion was to start Spain as a Frozen Minor Ally of Germany. This means she cant be attacked, although her resources already count for Germany. At least this way, Germany has to actually TRY to take Gibraltar rather than just waltzing in at their leisure. I would further suggest that Spain activates if the Germans take London or Moscow or if the Allies invade Portugal.

You know I really like this idea. Historically Spain did send a division to Russia, and was clearly pro-axis. I have no question the would have reacted negatively to an invasion of Portugal.

This solves the problem that it is TOO easy to make the Med an Italian lake.
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a511
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RE: Victory Conditions: One Man's Views

Post by a511 »

i like the Spain idea as well but i still prefer the idea, of which a no of ppl, incl. myself, have raised in the forum:
if there were chance for US/USSR intervention that started after the Axis had taken out 'x' neutrals [or achieved 'x' PPs]

AN
Harrybanana
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RE: Victory Conditions: One Man's Views

Post by Harrybanana »

ORIGINAL: Paul Vebber


The current thinking seems to be 70-72 with check at the end of the allied phase, or 75-77 with the check made at the end of the German turn.

If these are the only 2 choices Paul I will take the 75-77 with the check at the end of the Axis turn (I assume you meant Axis and not German). In most of the games Big Lou and I played giving the Allies the opportunity to retake resources would not have helped. But I still say the Axis will be able to achieve this in at least 1/2 of their games. Again, IMHO, the game should be structured in such a way that if the Axis go for the AV (by attacking neutrals only) their chance of Victory, assuming equally skilled opponents, should be minimal. In other words there should be a very high risk to this strategy.
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Harrybanana
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RE: Victory Conditions: One Man's Views

Post by Harrybanana »

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

The current plan is to set AV to 72 and only check at the end of the WA turn, however, as Paul says, this is fairly comparable to setting the current game to 75 to 77.

I disagree Joel, I don't think the 2 are comparable. IMHO it would be more difficult for the Axis to take say 75 Resources then it would be for them to take and hold 72 resources. Keep in mind that they can take 75+ Resources without involving Russia, but not without involving the US. However, the US is not usually in much of a position to retake any resources on their 1st turn. But as I've already said I still think either remedy still gives the Axis a good chance of winning the AV.
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Paul Vebber
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RE: Victory Conditions: One Man's Views

Post by Paul Vebber »

Russia is far more the threat - as they force Germany to garrison Rumania extensively or risk losing it to an attack from Kiev and armor from Kharkov. THe IJN can normally position itself so its not possible to take back any of the SRA on the "takeback turn" - the only threat being RN fleets sent out of the Med to be read to strike, but that usually means the germans have Suez and leaves them free run of the ME.

Its pretty much a"Given" that the Japs can get to 28 - the fill out resources being taken on the 'last turn' - so to make 75 the Germans need to fill out their 47. As I said, that requires taking Suez and several territories beyond, or holding teh Red sea and transporting through Ethopia into Africa. IF teh WA build up thier heavy fleets to 5 evasion/ 5 Flak that can be tough, even in the face of teched up German naval air. The other thing issue that makes 75 a lot harder is gettign the 50 extra supply to convert - that is 10 PP that is hard to come by on the strict timetable to win by Wi 43.

A big push in teh Med, usually means the Atlantic is left pretty much alone, and the German flet usually takes its lumps pretty bad, meaning the WA may be hard pressed to take back reousrces held by Japan, but are usally in a much stronger position to make amphib assualts into the ME from the REd Sea and Persian Gulf.

and with Russia and Rumania - adding teh take back turn means 1 less turn for the Germans to get teh AV - they have to get itby Fa 42, or have commited a lot to Rumania - Finalnd being frozen is ripe for the picking also, possibly sacandivia. In general say if AV at the end of the German turn is 76 and at teh end of teh Allied turn 72 - taking back or damaging 4 resources/factories is usually quite possible.

The key to the current situation, is making the Germans take Suez and points east to get the "neutral" AV, And not just sit and try to fortify Western Europe. The key then becomes the naval battle fo the Med, and teh Allies can afford to tech up air and naval units, and wait to tech up their ground units (except maybe for arty). The Russians tech up their land units (armor and arty in particular) and the Germans are stuck. IF they win the naval battle they win, but if they fail, they are screwed on land and teh SU will steam roll them in short order.

Note that with 72 at teh end of an Allied turn, you can take the "real life" German territories (worth 32) and you need to get to 44 - so you need 12 reseources from the SU - that is teh Western SU and then either the Caucuses (that puts you to 16) or one of the Urals, or Turkey. IF they can hold that against a Soviet Counterattack, then they deserve the AV.
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RE: Victory Conditions: One Man's Views

Post by Harrybanana »

Paul,
I'm not quite sure if you are agreeing with me or not that getting to 75 VPs (as the Axis) is harder than getting to 72 and holding for 1 turn. In any event I still say that either is quite possible. I'm not saying the Axis can do it every time, but they could do it about half the time given 2 equal opponents. If you want I am willing to put my money where my mouth is. I'll take the Axis, you take the Allies, we'll play with AV off but with the understanding that if I have 72 production (VPs) at the end of any Allied turn than I win an AV. If you are interested send your E-Mail address to bobharris@telus.net.
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Joel Billings
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RE: Victory Conditions: One Man's Views

Post by Joel Billings »

I should add that two other small changes that we will be making when we make the patch is to make the SU unfreeze when Southern Persia is attacked (not just northern Persia), and we will add a few more units to the major neutrals (and reposition the Turkish so they have a few more in the East). These are minor changes, but we think together with a change in the AV level and when it is scored will change the dynamics in the way we want. It is not perfect, but we think it will do the job. Honestly the AV was not intended to be the only way, or the usual way that the Axis would win. We did want to provide a method for them to win if the Allies did not fight hard enough in the early game to prevent it and to recognize a situation where there was no need to fight on as the Germans would clearly win in the end. Only with the repeated play by good players have we been able to get a sense of where the AV level should be and what other changes we can make to improve it without having to restructure victory (at least we think we can do it without major changes). I can't wait for the online version to make it's way through test so we can get around to implementing these changes. Until then, I still point players to the options I lised above to produce good games. You can also add one where you bid for the starting Axis AV level. Highest bidder gets the Axis. Or you can house rules against the neutral strategy. Lots of ways to play if you're willing to be creative and adjust the rules as you see fit.
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Harrybanana
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RE: Victory Conditions: One Man's Views

Post by Harrybanana »

Joel,
I'm not sure if adding an Axis attack on Southern Persia as 1 of the Areas that will unfreeze Russia wil help or hinder the Allies. I say this because I assume that if the WA attacks Southern Persia 1st then Germany can attack all the areas without triggering Russian intervention. In most of my games as the WA I invade Southern Persia before the Germans. I do this because otherwise the Germans can attack my transport in the Gulf and then when they attack Iraq my units there will be unable to retreat and damaged units will be destroyed.
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RE: Victory Conditions: One Man's Views

Post by JanSorensen »

To be frank it seems to me you are trying to fix the problem the wrong way.

Sure, its a problem that it is currently too easy for the Axis to get an AV - but it is just as much a problem that if the Axis commits to the AV the game is over come Wi43. Either the Axis have gotten the AV or they are in absolutely no shape to counter the Russians and just give up. Thus the Russian player in a 2vs2 game can rest assured that he wont get to play at all if the Axis aims for the AV.

Neither of the suggestions seem to concern itself with that problem at all and as such seem inadequate to me.
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Svend Karlson
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RE: Victory Conditions: One Man's Views

Post by Svend Karlson »

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

Svend,

In the games you held on until the end of 46 as the Axis, were you playing opponents of equal skill?

I cannot really answer that Harry. They certainly were experienced players.

My particular playstyle is to ignore the autovictory & go all out for crippling the SU. If I can do this, and I usually can, then I could hold against the Allies far beyond the Fall 46' end date.

If I tried to go for AV & failed however, I would be in a far, far worse position I believe.

My own suggestion, is rather than make Axis AV purely numerical or purely geographical, is to make it a combination of for example

- 70 production points sustained over one season
- SU production points is </= 10

This way a strong Barbarossa is crucial, which I doubt is likely if the player is messing around with the neutrals as their technology, supplies & units will all be reduced.
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Franky513
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RE: Victory Conditions: One Man's Views

Post by Franky513 »

I still think that you should add the option to AV that Germany has to take either Moscow or London in order to win by AV: If Germany does not take one of these cities, AV is not possible, regardeless how much production points they have.

In short:

The Axis have to conquer London or Moscow and must have sufficient production points for AV.
The Allies have to conquer Berlin or Kyushu and must have sufficient production points for AV.

Ciao Frank
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sajbalk
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RE: Victory Conditions: One Man's Views

Post by sajbalk »

I know many have compared this game to other strategic level games. I would say it falls about 1/3 of hte way from Axis and Allies to World in Flames. Much higher than AA in terems of replayability and an outstaning production system with the notion of population.

As to AV, I think that the Axis should have to achieve a certain PP value pplus certain territories. For example (London OR Moscow) AND 7X PP.

Alternatively, the Axis could need to capture, say 6, of the following 9: Chungking, Victoria, the Indian capital, London, Moscow, Leningrad, the Caucuses, Pearl Harbor, and Washington D.C.

A good Axis player should be able to acheive AV if he's lucky, very skillful, or overmatching someone. With evenly mathced players, AV should be rare. It seems odd to have the possibility of the game ending without the USSR or the USA ever getting an unfrozen move.

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Harrybanana
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RE: Victory Conditions: One Man's Views

Post by Harrybanana »

I have been playing 3 Test games with 3 different opponents to test how difficult it would be for the Axis to achieve the proposed new AV conditions (ie 72 VPs at the end of the Allied turn or 75 at the end of the Axis). We've only played 7 turns or less in each game so I can't say how they will turn out, but so far things are looking good for the Axis in each game. However, I read in a more recent post by Joel (can't remember the thread) that now the proposal will be to leave the AV at 70 but require the Axis to take either London or Moscow. I personally would welcome this proposal over the other 2 but wonder what everyone else thinks. Is this enough or should the Axis be required to take Moscow (rather than Moscow or London) or both?
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a511
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RE: Victory Conditions: One Man's Views

Post by a511 »

Is this enough or should the Axis be required to take Moscow (rather than Moscow or London) or both?

as reply to joe's (or paul?) thread, i agree the new direction. but i think its too demanding to take BOTH Moscow and London. i think either one will be just fine.

AN
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Paul Vebber
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RE: Victory Conditions: One Man's Views

Post by Paul Vebber »

That is the current leaning - London OR Moscow and 70PP total (including PPs from London or Moscow).
Harrybanana
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RE: Victory Conditions: One Man's Views

Post by Harrybanana »

Historically the high water mark for the Axis was December 42 (just prior to the Russian Winter offensive that cut off Stalingrad). In game terms, by my calculations, the Germans at that time controlled 42 resources and the Japanese 24, for a total of 66. I gave the Germans control of Grozny but not the Caucus. So with the new proposed Rules the Axis would have to duplicate what they did historically plus have the Japanese conquer China (a surprisingly simple task) and the Germans conquer Moscow (a more difficult task). Of course they would also have to have the supply to repair all those resources.
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sajbalk
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RE: Victory Conditions: One Man's Views

Post by sajbalk »

I am glad to see a changeg in the victory conditions. I have just had my lunch handed to me by HarryBanana. I should note that he probably could have achieved any sort of victory against me, though. All the Commonwealth .. no problem.


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GenChaos33
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RE: Victory Conditions: One Man's Views

Post by GenChaos33 »

Why not make the Axis AV a random number (maybe range 68-77) and unknown to all players? Then the Axis will never know if he has a easy AV to reach or an almost impossible AV. *chaos*
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Daykeras
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RE: Victory Conditions: One Man's Views

Post by Daykeras »

I like the london or moscow auto-victory, but can we make Spain a Frozen ally to Germany that is unfrozen upon invasion of Portugal or the taking of Moscow or London?

I really think that would help over-all.
Forwarn45
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RE: Victory Conditions: One Man's Views

Post by Forwarn45 »

This issue has been beaten to death. But why not throw in my current 2 cents anyway? [8D]

I think there should be a default for Auto Victory but that the exact number should be determined by the players when the game is set up. This would be the best way to please everyone and would facilitate bids if players want that - i.e., I'll take Axis for AV at 72; I'll take it at 71, etc.

Second, I really think that conquered neutrals are not equivalent to conquered enemy countries. As has been pointed out, the only point in game terms for a player taking some neutrals is for the AV and it otherwise actually hurts the player's game position. Thus, it is does not signify the player is "winning." I know there is a disagreement on this - but how about considering reducing the value of neutrals toward AV (say 1/2) or, which would perhaps be easier in code terms, instead counting free trade toward AV in a similarly reduced fashion (1/2 of current turn's free trade counts toward AV). I think this would make AV a better indicator that someone is actually winning and dominating the war.

The London or Moscow idea is better than the current system but it might unduly limit the viable Axis strategies in the game.
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