Selling
Moderators: Joel Billings, wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami
- LargeSlowTarget
- Posts: 4800
- Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
RE: Selling
I have run into this problem, too (with a different game) and noticed that this and similar threads in the forum never got an official answer. Any news, has this issue been sorted out?
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RE: Selling
The owner of software (and I mean the company - not you - the company owns licenced software) can authorize whatever they want (mostly). But that said, there is almost a complete institutional unwillingness of software companies to ever deal with this subject. The basic theory is that it is your LICENCE to use as much or little as you like as long as you like - and that is it. You don't own it, so you can't sell it.
Practice is different. Go to a used computer store - or bookstore - that does used software. There are only two kinds of used software in that store: that which has NO licence (the company has gone out of business, or less often declared the software open source, or it was shareware to begin with, or one other case below); and that which is illegally being sold! The majority is the second case. UNTIL Microsoft (the funder of most enforcement) starts shutting these down, practice is you can sell it.
There is one other special case - a deep dark secret - but one that made the Wall Street Journal in the 1980s. US Supreme Court said, in a major decision re this industry, that UNSUPPORTED software is OWNED by the licencees. The moment a company refuses to fix bugs - it can do so slowly forever - but the moment it REFUSES to fix them - YOU own the code and can do whatever you have to to fix them. Since then you own the code, you also can sell it! But I know of zero software houses who put this in the written legal licence agreements! I bet it is more than 99% unpopular to admit it, and I bet most don't even know about it.
Practice is different. Go to a used computer store - or bookstore - that does used software. There are only two kinds of used software in that store: that which has NO licence (the company has gone out of business, or less often declared the software open source, or it was shareware to begin with, or one other case below); and that which is illegally being sold! The majority is the second case. UNTIL Microsoft (the funder of most enforcement) starts shutting these down, practice is you can sell it.
There is one other special case - a deep dark secret - but one that made the Wall Street Journal in the 1980s. US Supreme Court said, in a major decision re this industry, that UNSUPPORTED software is OWNED by the licencees. The moment a company refuses to fix bugs - it can do so slowly forever - but the moment it REFUSES to fix them - YOU own the code and can do whatever you have to to fix them. Since then you own the code, you also can sell it! But I know of zero software houses who put this in the written legal licence agreements! I bet it is more than 99% unpopular to admit it, and I bet most don't even know about it.
RE: Selling
I am not a lawyer but I would believe that like most other software with licenses that if you are the legal owner you may do what you wish with your copy. If you sell it / give it away, to be legal you would then have to destroy any copies / backups / installations of the game you have. Otherwise you, not the person you sold it to, would be in violation of the software license.
But like I said I am not a lawyer and topics like these rarely get an answer from anyone.
Xargun
But like I said I am not a lawyer and topics like these rarely get an answer from anyone.
Xargun
- Captain Cruft
- Posts: 3636
- Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: England
RE: Selling
No, el_cid is right. When you buy any software all you get is a "right to use", you don't own anything. Title always remains with the owner/publisher. The right to transfer the "right to use" is generally left vague but I bet it could be stopped if anyone wanted to.
When a copy of software is physical it is easy to pass it on and the recipient will gladly assume the same illusion of ownership as the original license holder.
However, even though legally it's exactly the same I doubt anyone would ever buy a serial number and a file.
When a copy of software is physical it is easy to pass it on and the recipient will gladly assume the same illusion of ownership as the original license holder.
However, even though legally it's exactly the same I doubt anyone would ever buy a serial number and a file.
RE: Selling
Has anyone looked at the date of the original topic? This is from last May! [:D]
Designer of War Plan Orange
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med
Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med
Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.
RE: Selling
ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft
No, el_cid is right. When you buy any software all you get is a "right to use", you don't own anything. Title always remains with the owner/publisher. The right to transfer the "right to use" is generally left vague but I bet it could be stopped if anyone wanted to.
When a copy of software is physical it is easy to pass it on and the recipient will gladly assume the same illusion of ownership as the original license holder.
However, even though legally it's exactly the same I doubt anyone would ever buy a serial number and a file.
At the risk of turning this into another semi-religious thread (not The Thread, I would never challenge its divine greatness [&o]) one can argue that if I ordered and got the CD with the game, I at least own the CD and the cover while the code and content on the CD was graciously licensed to me for usage under my own humble supervision according to the Licence Agreement on the last (well almost at least) page of the manual. Now, the question is, and this is where it may get philosophical, if I own the CD but not the bits and bytes on it, "they" have really done a good of creating the illusion of ownership mentioned by Cpt Cruft. What happens if I want to terminate the Licence? I still want the CD and the cover I rightfully own.....Naaaah, go fix the new patch instead [>:]
- Captain Cruft
- Posts: 3636
- Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: England
RE: Selling
I agree it is all rather silly, and one of the reasons why we now have the Free/Open Source movement. Speaking of which, I am now intrigued by what OTWG is ...
- Captain Cruft
- Posts: 3636
- Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: England
RE: Selling
ORIGINAL: Tankerace
Has anyone looked at the date of the original topic? This is from last May! [:D]
I hadn't noticed. The question still needs answering though. I make it #37,345 on the list ...
RE: Selling
The License concept is pretty simple to understand:
You have no rights at all to anything [:D]
The old rules were changed specifically to protect companies *forever* against resale and reuse / rental of software due to the large rental business that kicked off. (I personally don't agree with the laws so write your local political figure, not me!)
If you wish to pursue the matter, do so directly via email to support @ matrixgames.com
You have no rights at all to anything [:D]
The old rules were changed specifically to protect companies *forever* against resale and reuse / rental of software due to the large rental business that kicked off. (I personally don't agree with the laws so write your local political figure, not me!)
If you wish to pursue the matter, do so directly via email to support @ matrixgames.com
RE: Selling
Never can tell just who's going to show up with an opinion. [:D]
Welcome back Ray.
Welcome back Ray.
- LargeSlowTarget
- Posts: 4800
- Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
RE: Selling
ORIGINAL: Tankerace
Has anyone looked at the date of the original topic? This is from last May! [:D]
So what? Issue resurfaces, LST remembers old thread, used the search function, got his answer [:'(].
RE: Selling
ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft
Speaking of which, I am now intrigued by what OTWG is ...
Being overambitious and totally refusing to use the word impossible, there must be a way to create an Open Source kind of game. Anyone interested, check the documents available for download etc. You´re all welcome...
And so endeth my shameless plug [;)]
RE: Selling
Widell,
Your link to OTWG is not working in your sig.
Your link to OTWG is not working in your sig.
x-Nuc twidget
CVN-71
USN 87-93
"Going slow in the fast direction"
CVN-71
USN 87-93
"Going slow in the fast direction"
RE: Selling
I Postulate that KnAvey is up to no gooD this evening.
Knavey is a clever one...
[:-]
-F-
Knavey is a clever one...
[:-]
-F-
"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me
RE: Selling
ORIGINAL: Knavey
Widell,
Your link to OTWG is not working in your sig.
It should. Just tested it. It seems as if Sourceforge sometimes comes and goes. Give it another try and see if it´ll let you in. I´m going to be setting up another, less tech geek site once I see if there´s interest, and maybe a few more guys on the team. If I´m doing it all by myself, I´ll bet my daughter and her future kids will inherrit this grand project [:'(]
- FeurerKrieg
- Posts: 3398
- Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:43 pm
- Location: Denver, CO
RE: Selling
Well, not sure about games since I seldom read the fine print in the license agreement, but not all software can not be sold. Some software does have assignability in the license meaning that you can sell/transfer the license to use it to another person/entity. That's the way some ERP systems are setup - not sure about games though.
Upper portion used with permission of www.subart.net, copyright John Meeks