CV TF Compisition (allied)

[pompack]

In 42:
1 CV
1 CLAA
2 CL
5 DD (up to 8 DD if there are any to spare (in 42? get real!))

In early 43:
1 CV
1 CVL
1 CLAA
2 CL
1 CA
8 DD

In 44 (late 43 if I have to because of lack of escorts):
2 CV or 1 CV, 2 CVL
1BB
1CLAA
3CL
8DD

Remember: one Alpha strike can only sink as many carriers as are in one TF. Never put more than one CV in a TF until you have Hellcats or damn good pilots. Have multiple CTFs follow the leader, always have at least two CVs per hex.

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn

ORIGINAL: The Gnome

Hi All, I'm looking for a good CV TF compisition for the allies. I have the bulk of my Yorktowns, all the Lexingtons, and 2 Essex right now.

Right now I'm broken down into:
2 CV
1 CVL
2 CA (Northhamptons or Baltimores)
2 CL (Clevelands, Helenas, or Brooklyns)
1 CLAA (Atlanta or Oakland)
7 DD (Fletchers or Bristols)

I was thinking of throwing in a newer BB into the mix for more AA, but right now my fastest model is only(only?) 27-28 knots, and I don't want it to slow down the TF. It might be worth the tradeoff but for now I'm going with speed.

Anyone see anything wrong, or anything that could be set up better?

Because of the rules set re air coordination it's smart (and just happens to represent Allied CV operational doctrine until later in the war) to use your CV assets in smaller TFs, each with a single CV, then have all these CV TFs sail together in the same hex. This allows all the collective flak in the hex to contribute to air defense and makes it likely no more than a couple of your precious CVs will come under attack from any given enemy CV TF or land-based air strike--and with luck only one of your CVs will come under attack. All of your AA cruisers should be in attendance, as well as your best AA-rated BB/CA/CL/DDs. spread out amongst the various CV TFs. To ensure this mob stays together, if possible include a ship that is at least a knot slower than the others and stick it in any CV TF, then order that CV TF lead the way, with the other TFs following along behind (this to ensure your lead CV TF doesn't inadvertently outpace the TFs in train).

I don't view speed as being the most important consideration in operations of this kind. The most important consideration is aircraft carrier safety! By including the North Carolina/South Dakota-class BBs you're only going to drop from 6/6 to 5/5, and when you think about it that 6/6 would likely be a 5/5 soon anyway just from normal wear and tear to one of your escorting ships. By starting out as 5/5 you're merely anticipating this inevitability. Meanwhile, by including these newer BBs in the mix you're adding a wealth of AA protection to your CVs, which are, after all, your most important assets. Also, as mentioned above, BBs act as bomb/torpedo magnets during battles, thus saving your CVs from that much more enemy attention. In a word, fast BBs in your mix can make the critical difference between winning and losing an air battle at sea.

The only drawback to this arrangement involves the rule re carrier reaction to enemy carriers. Unfortunately, these indivudual CV TFs will all react differently (i.e. it could be one or more will choose not to react, perhaps leaving then one or more CV TFs exposed to enemy reprisal alone). That's a pity, and yet another game mechanic which begs for review, but as long as that rule's in there it has to be dealt with, and so if I were you I'd set reaction to "0" for all your CV TFs. This will effectively guard against the worst case, though it might mean your carriers will not be close enough to strike back at your longer-armed enemy--they probably will be, assuming you know where the enemy CVs are and issue your course orders accordingly, but they might not.

Anyway, it's your fleet and the choice is always yours. Be creative if you want. [:)]

TJ:
Agree EXCEPT the flak is per TF. All the CAP in the hex will protect any TF in the hex, but the flak will only protect it's own TF.

[tsimmonds]

By including the North Carolina/South Dakota-class BBs you're only going to drop from 6/6 to 5/5, and when you think about it that 6/6 would likely be a 5/5 soon anyway just from normal wear and tear to one of your escorting ships. By starting out as 5/5 you're merely anticipating this inevitability.

I certainly agree on this. How often do you need to move 12 hexes rather than 10 in any case? And 95% of the time all you are doing is mission speed.....

[Mr.Frag]

Cruise speed and you'll never find your aircraft not launching due to shortage of ops points. If you need to get there faster then that, you are probably too late anyways. [;)]

You guys throwing a million DD's in and running around at full speed are *really* asking for it as the DD's will suck the fuel out of your CV's and leave you with nothing flying.

[Tristanjohn]

ORIGINAL: pompack

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn

ORIGINAL: The Gnome

Hi All, I'm looking for a good CV TF compisition for the allies. I have the bulk of my Yorktowns, all the Lexingtons, and 2 Essex right now.

Right now I'm broken down into:
2 CV
1 CVL
2 CA (Northhamptons or Baltimores)
2 CL (Clevelands, Helenas, or Brooklyns)
1 CLAA (Atlanta or Oakland)
7 DD (Fletchers or Bristols)

I was thinking of throwing in a newer BB into the mix for more AA, but right now my fastest model is only(only?) 27-28 knots, and I don't want it to slow down the TF. It might be worth the tradeoff but for now I'm going with speed.

Anyone see anything wrong, or anything that could be set up better?

Because of the rules set re air coordination it's smart (and just happens to represent Allied CV operational doctrine until later in the war) to use your CV assets in smaller TFs, each with a single CV, then have all these CV TFs sail together in the same hex. This allows all the collective flak in the hex to contribute to air defense and makes it likely no more than a couple of your precious CVs will come under attack from any given enemy CV TF or land-based air strike--and with luck only one of your CVs will come under attack. All of your AA cruisers should be in attendance, as well as your best AA-rated BB/CA/CL/DDs. spread out amongst the various CV TFs. To ensure this mob stays together, if possible include a ship that is at least a knot slower than the others and stick it in any CV TF, then order that CV TF lead the way, with the other TFs following along behind (this to ensure your lead CV TF doesn't inadvertently outpace the TFs in train).

I don't view speed as being the most important consideration in operations of this kind. The most important consideration is aircraft carrier safety! By including the North Carolina/South Dakota-class BBs you're only going to drop from 6/6 to 5/5, and when you think about it that 6/6 would likely be a 5/5 soon anyway just from normal wear and tear to one of your escorting ships. By starting out as 5/5 you're merely anticipating this inevitability. Meanwhile, by including these newer BBs in the mix you're adding a wealth of AA protection to your CVs, which are, after all, your most important assets. Also, as mentioned above, BBs act as bomb/torpedo magnets during battles, thus saving your CVs from that much more enemy attention. In a word, fast BBs in your mix can make the critical difference between winning and losing an air battle at sea.

The only drawback to this arrangement involves the rule re carrier reaction to enemy carriers. Unfortunately, these indivudual CV TFs will all react differently (i.e. it could be one or more will choose not to react, perhaps leaving then one or more CV TFs exposed to enemy reprisal alone). That's a pity, and yet another game mechanic which begs for review, but as long as that rule's in there it has to be dealt with, and so if I were you I'd set reaction to "0" for all your CV TFs. This will effectively guard against the worst case, though it might mean your carriers will not be close enough to strike back at your longer-armed enemy--they probably will be, assuming you know where the enemy CVs are and issue your course orders accordingly, but they might not.

Anyway, it's your fleet and the choice is always yours. Be creative if you want. [:)]

TJ:
Agree EXCEPT the flak is per TF. All the CAP in the hex will protect any TF in the hex, but the flak will only protect it's own TF.

Well, then I just learned something. That's been changed since UV. Do you have a manual page I can go to for that?

[Yamato hugger]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Cruise speed and you'll never find your aircraft not launching due to shortage of ops points. If you need to get there faster then that, you are probably too late anyways. [;)]

You guys throwing a million DD's in and running around at full speed are *really* asking for it as the DD's will suck the fuel out of your CV's and leave you with nothing flying.

I agree. I usually only have 5 or 6 DDs in my CV groups. According to Mog, only 6 are used in ASW combat anyway.

Gnome, if you are looking at late war deployments, you want 3 CVs, 1 CVL, 6 DDs, and the 5 best flak boats you have that have a min speed of 30 kts. If you are looking at start of war forces, then what you have is good, except you have no CVLs, so replace that with a flak barge.

[Charles2222]

Yamato hugger:

I agree. I usually only have 5 or 6 DDs in my CV groups. According to Mog, only 6 are used in ASW combat anyway.

I don't know. I've had more than 6 in some of my ASW TF's and every single one of them 'searches' at least. I also question whether it's strictly DD's or not. My guess, of course, is that the saying is that it's no more than 6 ASW ships of any sort. I can't say I've ever had more than 6 DD's in a group though.

Oh, and I can only speak from the Japanese side on this matter.

[LargeSlowTarget]

Early in the war, I keep my CVs out of harm's way until I can counter the KB Death Star with one of my own - actually two semi-Death Stars, since I group the three Yorktowns in one TF and Sara, Lady Lex and Wasp in another, with the older CAs and Brooklyn-CLs and plenty of those DDs with few torpedo tubes as escorts. I don't care about the 15-ship rule since it is only a diminishing return, not a cap-off of AA. The newer CAs and DDs with many torpedo tubes form a surface action TF (also sometimes draws off some strikes). Since Wasp is the slowest ship in the bundle, I let the other two TFs follow Wasp and consorts, so the TFs stay together (at least most of the time). When encountering KB, it usually results in a great slaughter, but I don't mind losing three CVs if I can nail most of KB in return. I only got into mid-43 so far, and my current CV-TFs usually contain two CV, two CVL, six CL/CLAAs, 10 Fletchers, following a surface action group of nex BBs.

[adsoul]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Cruise speed and you'll never find your aircraft not launching due to shortage of ops points. If you need to get there faster then that, you are probably too late anyways. [;)]

You guys throwing a million DD's in and running around at full speed are *really* asking for it as the DD's will suck the fuel out of your CV's and leave you with nothing flying.

Mr.Frag, IIRC (it was alot of time ago) you wrote that CV's won't ever launch a single a/c if speed is set to cruise

[Mr.Frag]

Mr.Frag, IIRC (it was alot of time ago) you wrote that CV's won't ever launch a single a/c if speed is set to cruise

Not that long ago, you misunderstood what I said, I was referring to fuel use if you look at the thread. CV's burn fuel at full rates when launching aircraft. [;)]

[adsoul]

Thanks, I'm going to look for that thread... maybe a careful read could help me [;)]

[Mr.Frag]

Search on fuel CV cruise by me in this forum.

[adsoul]

Thanks, this is the thread I have misunderstood: fb.asp?m=763859&key=

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn

ORIGINAL: pompack

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn




Because of the rules set re air coordination it's smart (and just happens to represent Allied CV operational doctrine until later in the war) to use your CV assets in smaller TFs, each with a single CV, then have all these CV TFs sail together in the same hex. This allows all the collective flak in the hex to contribute to air defense and makes it likely no more than a couple of your precious CVs will come under attack from any given enemy CV TF or land-based air strike--and with luck only one of your CVs will come under attack. All of your AA cruisers should be in attendance, as well as your best AA-rated BB/CA/CL/DDs. spread out amongst the various CV TFs. To ensure this mob stays together, if possible include a ship that is at least a knot slower than the others and stick it in any CV TF, then order that CV TF lead the way, with the other TFs following along behind (this to ensure your lead CV TF doesn't inadvertently outpace the TFs in train).

I don't view speed as being the most important consideration in operations of this kind. The most important consideration is aircraft carrier safety! By including the North Carolina/South Dakota-class BBs you're only going to drop from 6/6 to 5/5, and when you think about it that 6/6 would likely be a 5/5 soon anyway just from normal wear and tear to one of your escorting ships. By starting out as 5/5 you're merely anticipating this inevitability. Meanwhile, by including these newer BBs in the mix you're adding a wealth of AA protection to your CVs, which are, after all, your most important assets. Also, as mentioned above, BBs act as bomb/torpedo magnets during battles, thus saving your CVs from that much more enemy attention. In a word, fast BBs in your mix can make the critical difference between winning and losing an air battle at sea.

The only drawback to this arrangement involves the rule re carrier reaction to enemy carriers. Unfortunately, these indivudual CV TFs will all react differently (i.e. it could be one or more will choose not to react, perhaps leaving then one or more CV TFs exposed to enemy reprisal alone). That's a pity, and yet another game mechanic which begs for review, but as long as that rule's in there it has to be dealt with, and so if I were you I'd set reaction to "0" for all your CV TFs. This will effectively guard against the worst case, though it might mean your carriers will not be close enough to strike back at your longer-armed enemy--they probably will be, assuming you know where the enemy CVs are and issue your course orders accordingly, but they might not.

Anyway, it's your fleet and the choice is always yours. Be creative if you want. [:)]

TJ:
Agree EXCEPT the flak is per TF. All the CAP in the hex will protect any TF in the hex, but the flak will only protect it's own TF.

Well, then I just learned something. That's been changed since UV. Do you have a manual page I can go to for that?

I don't believe that it is explicitly in the manual; there was a thread on the subject a LONG time ago (late summer?) and that was the betazoid position. I tried a test (1 AK TF and 15 ship CA/DD TF in the same hex) and the results (only three trials) seemed to support this. Attacks on the AK never damaged any a/c and attacks on the CA/DD TF had a large number of damage reports against the attacking a/c.

[byron13]

ORIGINAL: The Gnome

Hi All, I'm looking for a good CV TF compisition for the allies. I have the bulk of my Yorktowns, all the Lexingtons, and 2 Essex right now.

Right now I'm broken down into:
2 CV
1 CVL
2 CA (Northhamptons or Baltimores)
2 CL (Clevelands, Helenas, or Brooklyns)
1 CLAA (Atlanta or Oakland)
7 DD (Fletchers or Bristols)

I was thinking of throwing in a newer BB into the mix for more AA, but right now my fastest model is only(only?) 27-28 knots, and I don't want it to slow down the TF. It might be worth the tradeoff but for now I'm going with speed.

Anyone see anything wrong, or anything that could be set up better?

Just in case you're looking for an eighteenth opinion, my TF make-up in '43 would look like yours, but I would throw in a fast BB - probably in place of a destroyer. The CLAAs might have provided a bigger AA bang for the buck in '42, but after the upgrades, they don't do that much - especially compared to the new CLs coming off the quays. I've got enough old BBs to handle planned surface actions and bombardments.

[Tristanjohn]

ORIGINAL: pompack

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn

ORIGINAL: pompack





TJ:
Agree EXCEPT the flak is per TF. All the CAP in the hex will protect any TF in the hex, but the flak will only protect it's own TF.

Well, then I just learned something. That's been changed since UV. Do you have a manual page I can go to for that?

I don't believe that it is explicitly in the manual; there was a thread on the subject a LONG time ago (late summer?) and that was the betazoid position. I tried a test (1 AK TF and 15 ship CA/DD TF in the same hex) and the results (only three trials) seemed to support this. Attacks on the AK never damaged any a/c and attacks on the CA/DD TF had a large number of damage reports against the attacking a/c.

Well, what you're saying is this is yet another probable undocumented feature? [8D]

Brother. If there's one thing I don't get it's to ask someone to sit down and play without knowing the rules. Would you willingly sit down at a table of "poker" for real money if you didn't know the rules?

Does anyone know for sure and for certain how flak behaves in a multi-TF hex? And I'm talking WitP here, not the way it used to be in UV.

[BaitBoy]

Could someone please clarify the rule about multiple allied CVs in the same TF. How bad is the penalty, and how many CVs do you need to have in the same TF before it kicks in?

[Mr.Frag]

Could someone please clarify the rule about multiple allied CVs in the same TF. How bad is the penalty, and how many CVs do you need to have in the same TF before it kicks in?

There is no multiple CV's in hex penalty.

As far as CV's *in* a TF, it is in the manual, rule 7.2.2.11 (pg 130/131)

[Nikademus]

and Flak is TF specific. Only CAP in the same hex is not.

[The Dude]

What is this flak penalty everyone talks about