Okay...WTF

Gary Grigsby's World At War gives you the chance to really run a world war. History is yours to write and things may turn out differently. The Western Allies may be conquered by Germany, or Japan may defeat China. With you at the controls, leading the fates of nations and alliances. Take command in this dynamic turn-based game and test strategies that long-past generals and world leaders could only dream of. Now anything is possible in this new strategic offering from Matrix Games and 2 by 3 Games.

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Marines
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Okay...WTF

Post by Marines »

Perhaps I should have read more deeply into the specifications. Now, this is a grand strategic war game, but where the hell are the diplomatic options. Somewhere...oh yes, they don't exist.

How can you have a game of this size, without the political options?
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targul
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RE: Okay...WTF

Post by targul »

Guess you have to assume you are the military commander not the nations commander.

I would agree political options are normally a must in a grand strategy game but I will wait to play it to find out.

Since it will be awhile before I get an actual copy I will just lurk and see how and what you folks think about it.
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RE: Okay...WTF

Post by Marines »

ORIGINAL: targul

Guess you have to assume you are the military commander not the nations commander.

I would agree political options are normally a must in a grand strategy game but I will wait to play it to find out.

Since it will be awhile before I get an actual copy I will just lurk and see how and what you folks think about it.

No, almost every element is factored in, in fact, you command every aspect of the nation you control, from production to military operations. But, the diplomatic options were left out...why?
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RE: Okay...WTF

Post by Paul Vebber »

Like?

There are a number of conditions to countries like China, the US and Russia getting involved.

You can try in multi-player to convince the US to go after Japan first...RUssia to leave you alone...Japan to invade Russia with you.

IT was a specific design decision that there would be no "random factors" like the AI sometimes not attacking until 43, or other attacking Germany in early 42 say. They wanted a given scenario strategy to be "set" so you win or lose based on your strategy - not a "random event" throwing a monkey wrench in things.

You can edit the scenario files and create variations. I started the Mods and scenarios section for exchanging those sort so of things. THere may even be a third party utility to randomly "swap out" scenario modifications.

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RE: Okay...WTF

Post by Marines »

ORIGINAL: Paul Vebber

Like?

There are a number of conditions to countries like China, the US and Russia getting involved.

You can try in multi-player to convince the US to go after Japan first...RUssia to leave you alone...Japan to invade Russia with you.

IT was a specific design decision that there would be no "random factors" like the AI sometimes not attacking until 43, or other attacking Germany in early 42 say. They wanted a given scenario strategy to be "set" so you win or lose based on your strategy - not a "random event" throwing a monkey wrench in things.

You can edit the scenario files and create variations. I started the Mods and scenarios section for exchanging those sort so of things. THere may even be a third party utility to randomly "swap out" scenario modifications.


Paul, I don't want to edit a damn thing, and do you honestly think that most will?

All I wish is that diplomatic options were included, why they were not is beyond me. It is a core element of games like this, HOI 2 did a pretty good job, and that sim is way more in depth than WaW. So what kept them from it?
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RE: Okay...WTF

Post by Becket »

Simply put, Gary wanted to design a simple to learn, difficult to master grand strategy game. It was not designed to be Third Reich, or WiF, or Bruce Harper's A World at War.

Compare it instead with one of the highest rated wargames at boardgamegeek.com & ConsimWorld: Europe Engulfed...which includes no diplomatic model more robust than present in W@W (simple limitations on when you can attack other major powers). Before you say that EE is just one theatre, Rick & Co. are already at work on Asia Engulfed, which will be linked with EE to provide all theaters...with no diplomatic model. Clearly, there is a market for great wargames that don't model whether or not Spain decides to ally with Germany or Turkey comes into the war.

In any event, there are minor things included, like the penalty for Allied nations attacking neutrals, or the free trade, or all of that. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater because you were looking for something more like Third Reich. That said, if diplomacy models are really, really important to you, you will not find them here.


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RE: Okay...WTF

Post by Paul Vebber »

I'm asking what sort of "diplomatic options" you are talking about. You have teh option to keep CHina hobbled by not attacking into the interior provinces, you have the option to keep Russia or the US out of the war until 43 by not attacking them (or in teh US case Japan not tryig to fight China (interior) and Russia at teh same time.

Like i said, the design intent is to keep the "strategic landscape" constant - in that set triggers will bring SU, WA and China in absed on the choices you make, not some sort of "random events" thing that bring countries into the war randomly.

IF you want Germay and Russia to gang up on Japan and the US, then this game is not for you. THe game was set up to reflect the strategic situation at each camapign start date. Within that framewrk you run the reseasrch, unit production, logistics and combat direction. Trust me, those are quite a lot to keep track of. Particularly on the hard settings.

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RE: Okay...WTF

Post by Marines »

ORIGINAL: Becket

Simply put, Gary wanted to design a simple to learn, difficult to master grand strategy game. It was not designed to be Third Reich, or WiF, or Bruce Harper's A World at War.

Compare it instead with one of the highest rated wargames at boardgamegeek.com & ConsimWorld: Europe Engulfed...which includes no diplomatic model more robust than present in W@W (simple limitations on when you can attack other major powers). Before you say that EE is just one theatre, Rick & Co. are already at work on Asia Engulfed, which will be linked with EE to provide all theaters...with no diplomatic model. Clearly, there is a market for great wargames that don't model whether or not Spain decides to ally with Germany or Turkey comes into the war.

In any event, there are minor things included, like the penalty for Allied nations attacking neutrals, or the free trade, or all of that. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater because you were looking for something more like Third Reich. That said, if diplomacy models are really, really important to you, you will not find them here.


Thank's for the reply, however, the question still stands, and remains unanswered. A simple war game it is, but I highly doubt that the inclusion of a diplomatic aspect would have murdered the AI.

Considering the games scale, how can you not include it?!
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RE: Okay...WTF

Post by Joel Billings »

Basically because we think this makes for a better game. It was a fundamental design decision that of course you are free to disagree with. There are various items in the game regarding the interactions of the major and minor countries that impact strategies, but fundamentally we wanted a game that focused on 3 Allied players ultimately fighting against 2 Axis players. This is one of the reasons we started in 1940 instead of 1939. Adding diplomacy would have added a layer of complexity and randomness that we felt the game was better off without. I understand the basic desire to have diplomacy, but we stand behind our design decision. The Wargamer review had the following to say about this issue:

"World at War is an excellent mid-level game of World War II grand strategy and a must-have for anyone interested in World War II strategy. Its impressive list of features, including an easy-to-use interface and challenging AI, makes it a highly enjoyable game. Achieving this level of playability, however, has not come without cost. Certain compromises have had to be made in order to make it accessible to a wider audience. Some features, such as the ability to play the war out from 1939, or conduct diplomacy have been omitted. Still, these do not detract significantly from the overall game experience and the enjoyment of making strategic decisions that can determine the outcome of a world at war."



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RE: Okay...WTF

Post by Marines »

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Basically because we think this makes for a better game. It was a fundamental design decision that of course you are free to disagree with. There are various items in the game regarding the interactions of the major and minor countries that impact strategies, but fundamentally we wanted a game that focused on 3 Allied players ultimately fighting against 2 Axis players. This is one of the reasons we started in 1940 instead of 1939. Adding diplomacy would have added a layer of complexity and randomness that we felt the game was better off without. I understand the basic desire to have diplomacy, but we stand behind our design decision. The Wargamer review had the following to say about this issue:

"World at War is an excellent mid-level game of World War II grand strategy and a must-have for anyone interested in World War II strategy. Its impressive list of features, including an easy-to-use interface and challenging AI, makes it a highly enjoyable game. Achieving this level of playability, however, has not come without cost. Certain compromises have had to be made in order to make it accessible to a wider audience. Some features, such as the ability to play the war out from 1939, or conduct diplomacy have been omitted. Still, these do not detract significantly from the overall game experience and the enjoyment of making strategic decisions that can determine the outcome of a world at war."




That was the answer I was hoping for, and I thank you for it.

Now, for my question. Is there any chance that a diplomatic addition will be included in the future?
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RE: Okay...WTF

Post by Pippin »

Joel, off topic but here goes:

What are the chances of a new Panzer General before the decade is out?

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RE: Okay...WTF

Post by Joel Billings »

No plans to add diplomatic options in the future.

As for Panzer General, who knows, but I doubt it. It's not clear who has the rights to the name at this point (my guess would be Ubisoft, but not sure about that). Of course it would be nice to see a game like that come from someone out there.
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RE: Okay...WTF

Post by jpinard »

ORIGINAL: Marines

Perhaps I should have read more deeply into the specifications. Now, this is a grand strategic war game, but where the hell are the diplomatic options. Somewhere...oh yes, they don't exist.

How can you have a game of this size, without the political options?


Sheesh, I bought a military game, not a diplomatic game. Go play HOI. I am so glad this game is the way it is. Why the hell would they want to make a damn HOI2 clone buddy?

2B3 - you did an excellent job. Sorry to see some people be so insane.
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RE: Okay...WTF

Post by Raukman »

ORIGINAL: jpinard

ORIGINAL: Marines

Perhaps I should have read more deeply into the specifications. Now, this is a grand strategic war game, but where the hell are the diplomatic options. Somewhere...oh yes, they don't exist.

How can you have a game of this size, without the political options?


Sheesh, I bought a military game, not a diplomatic game. Go play HOI. I am so glad this game is the way it is. Why the hell would they want to make a damn HOI2 clone buddy?

2B3 - you did an excellent job. Sorry to see some people be so insane.


Agree! WaW is nice as it it. An adcanced Risk, and Risk does not have diplomacy.... this is war!!!

But Marines had the solution! He should have read the specifications more deeply. I have... [:)] and I want war with the options to modify my units to get them the edge I prefeer; and not diplomacy.


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RE: Okay...WTF

Post by dobeln »

Couple of points:

1.) The HoI II Diplomacy system that you mention is a train wreck, plain and simple. Manchuria (modelled separately as a "Japanese puppet" decides to declare war on the USSR from time to time, completely wrecking the Japanese player's game). Getting Japan or, god forbid, Italy to ally with Germany is damn near impossible. Hell, playing Italy in the 1936 scenario I had Germany declare war on me - quite a surprise. You want world conquest with Sweden? No problem! Not quite my cup of tea, in short.

2.) A better comparison would perhaps be the Clash of Steel model. While this worked pretty nicely, it was essentialy just one huge random factor. Sometimes a neutral would join you, sometimes not. Sometimes the USSR would go after Germany in 1940 (meaning that the game was pretty much over...), sometimes not. The Allies had pretty much no use for Diplomacy. (Which was pretty historical - AFAIK few significant minor nations ever joined the Allied cause because of Diplomacy)...

3.) My gripes with the current WaW diplomacy system (it's in there, just very well integrated with the game.):

a) Add a warning popup for Japan w/ regards to actions that lead to war with the US. Also add more hints in-game as to what actions are required for Finnish intervention / Romanian / Hungarian intervention against the USSR.

b) Make it possible to go after the SW-resource area without US intervention, given that you have been defensive in China. (Just as it is possible to go after the USSR without a US DOW provided that you didn't go after inland China.
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RE: Okay...WTF

Post by Paul Vebber »

You can mod the scenario entry triggers to do all the things you mention.
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RE: Okay...WTF

Post by dobeln »

Neato :)

Still, having the warning at least in the "standard distribution" would probably be appriciated by many.
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RE: Okay...WTF

Post by Paul Vebber »

SOmething like the little icon that warns you of violating garrison limits, or letting partisans grow would be nice.

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RE: Okay...WTF

Post by dobeln »

Just one more thing - I just discovered the hard way that even Germany going after shipping in the SW resource area will trigger US entry. Isn't this a tad harsh? :P (This was a case of subs operating out of Egypt going after allied shipping)
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RE: Okay...WTF

Post by IDrinkBeer »

ORIGINAL: dobeln

Just one more thing - I just discovered the hard way that even Germany going after shipping in the SW resource area will trigger US entry. Isn't this a tad harsh? :P (This was a case of subs operating out of Egypt going after allied shipping)

Play balance...

Remember, subs ( and transports ) are the only naval units that don't consume supply when moving. If German subs can attack all WA shipping in SRA it would be open to severe abuse by German players.

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