South China/Indo China

Gary Grigsby's strategic level wargame covering the entire War in the Pacific from 1941 to 1945 or beyond.

Moderators: Joel Billings, wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami

kevini100
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 8:18 pm

South China/Indo China

Post by kevini100 »

From reading the AAR's on one of Mogami's games. It looks as though Mogami secured the Southern rail line from Hanoi to Canton early on if the report read right. Now additional forces would have to be deployed from somehwere to do this. Units that would be used to attack, PI, Singapore or the SRA. I gues I would ask if securing the Southern Rail line early on is that important or does it possibly take away units from other areas?

Thanks,

Kevin
User avatar
jwilkerson
Posts: 7900
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2002 4:02 am
Location: Kansas
Contact:

RE: South China/Indo China

Post by jwilkerson »

That's a good question and I'm pondering it as we prepare for a re-start. In play testing [ I play test these types of questions in head to head mode so I can make sure the other guy does what I want ]. I moved the 15 and 16NvlGds ... another BF 2 construction engineers and 2 armored units over from Taan on 14 speed AP right away then home ported them over to Hanoi to pull out the 21st to send to the P.I. You have to balance the risk with what you think your opponent will do. Given the French divisional reinforcements ... it will take a pretty major effort to take and hold Hanoi/Haiphong ... and it looks like the above reinforcements are just enough to hold. So not a huge drain on the primary forces for the other areas in this type of plan. MOG would have to say how he did it ... this is just one way to maybe do it.
AE Project Lead
New Game Project Lead
User avatar
mogami
Posts: 11053
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 8:00 am
Location: You can't get here from there

RE: South China/Indo China

Post by mogami »

Hi, The Chinese troops that begin on the rail marched to Nanning. Nanning is defended by a single mixed Bde so the 21st Div located in hanoi just marched down RR to nanning. There was no fighting the Chinese had left the road open. I sent more troops (4th Mixed Bde and 4th Mixed Rgt) from Saigon to Haipong (moved from there to Hanoi) and other units from Taan to Pakhoi. 23rd Mixed Bde from Saigon to Pakhoi (it then moved to Nanning) I won't just let the Chinese capture one of my bases.
Image




I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
User avatar
jwilkerson
Posts: 7900
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2002 4:02 am
Location: Kansas
Contact:

RE: South China/Indo China

Post by jwilkerson »

That would definitely do the trick - but I at least have usually ear-marked the 4Bde,4Regt and 23MBde for Malaya - hence getting to Kevin's concern about ... is it worth it to hold them.

I lost them in my current game - but other than pride I'm not sure it has mattered.

Also, if they can be held with less ( 15,16 NGds,engineers etc. ) all the better - eh ?
AE Project Lead
New Game Project Lead
moses
Posts: 2252
Joined: Sun Jul 07, 2002 3:39 am

RE: South China/Indo China

Post by moses »

I use Nanning as an airbase. Air units there can bomb Chungking, Kumming, and any defence positions in the Wuchow area. I would love for the Chinese to fight for this area as their supply situation here is horrible. They would be drawing supply across trial hexes where I just get mine from the adjacent port.

Normally the Chinese don't fight for this and retreat most of their troops to where they are needed more. I send one SNLF to the port at start so that I can meet garrison requiements and leave the Bde in Nanning. It will take 3 or 4 Corps to take Nanning against my Bde. If China demonstrates the commitment to do this they can have it and I will move enough force to the port to prevent a Dunkirk. Plus I can use an old battleship or two to help prevent the port from falling. If China remain at Nanning in force I may just evacuate the whole area.

China will regret not having those corps in the interior. They achieve nothing in Nanning.
User avatar
mogami
Posts: 11053
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 8:00 am
Location: You can't get here from there

RE: South China/Indo China

Post by mogami »

Hi, In every game I have ever played I just planned to send the 4th Regt and 4th Bde to Hanoi. The 21st Div goes to the SRA (and will in this game after nanning made secure)
There is nothing there at start. You have to send something. 1 Chinese Corp is 200AV so I send about 500 AV to defend. (I need enough time to move more if required.)
Image




I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
User avatar
jwilkerson
Posts: 7900
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2002 4:02 am
Location: Kansas
Contact:

RE: South China/Indo China

Post by jwilkerson »

I don't get to play "normal" Chinese ... mine go after these places ... since as set up ... they are easy pickin's.
AE Project Lead
New Game Project Lead
moses
Posts: 2252
Joined: Sun Jul 07, 2002 3:39 am

RE: South China/Indo China

Post by moses »

My previous post was based on tests I did several patches ago. I just tested it under 1.4 and nanning falls convincingly to a 4 corps shock attack on 9 Dec. (14 to 1 odds after being hit by an air strike.) Can Japan get reinforcements there by 9 Dec??
User avatar
mogami
Posts: 11053
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 8:00 am
Location: You can't get here from there

RE: South China/Indo China

Post by mogami »

Hi, They can if they bother to make a few airstrikes on the Chinese before they get there.
(This very scenario is being covered currently in the AAR between Brady and myself)
Image




I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
User avatar
2ndACR
Posts: 5524
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 7:32 am
Location: Irving,Tx

RE: South China/Indo China

Post by 2ndACR »

You can also air lift (shudder) the Para Regiment there or load up the extra units on turn 1 and send them. They will basically be unloaded on turn 2-4 and on their way to the base.
Mike Scholl
Posts: 6187
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 1:17 am
Location: Kansas City, MO

RE: South China/Indo China

Post by Mike Scholl »

Not sure this is worth that much effort at first. I've taken the two Japanese-held
cities there a couple of times. But it doesn't really go anywhere unless the Japs
have abandoned Hanoi. It's mostly just a diversion that the Japanese can kick
out later when they have spare strength. As long as they hold Canton and Hanoi
they hold everything they really need. But it is fun for the Chinese...
User avatar
mogami
Posts: 11053
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 8:00 am
Location: You can't get here from there

RE: South China/Indo China

Post by mogami »

Hi, I think it a very bad habit to allow the enemy to get his way on anything. If the Chinese want Nanning they are going to have a fight over it. I will endevor to make it a costly mistake to mess with me early in the war.

I don't care how much I have to alter my plans. I will never conceed and let the enemy succeed in an operation if I can prevent it. The rules of the war are simple and I put them to the enemy right away.

1. I get my way.
2. You don't do anything if I don't want you to do it.

The enemy wins the war when he can break my rules.

(As Allied player I let the Japanese do alot. ...for a little while)
Image




I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
User avatar
jwilkerson
Posts: 7900
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2002 4:02 am
Location: Kansas
Contact:

RE: South China/Indo China

Post by jwilkerson »

Using the Airborne is an example of the "too costly" as the abn represent a potential offensive capability that could be invaluable in certain circumstances. I'm confident that 15,16 NvlGfd with 2 Armor a BF and 2 ConsEngs can hold against the initial assault against either target ... and if you can hold initially it is probably over if the Japanese are sufficiently aggressive in the North and Center.

I just was not aware the Chinese had the units and the planning to overrun these two spots right off the bat ... so I took no defensive measures in my first game.
AE Project Lead
New Game Project Lead
User avatar
mogami
Posts: 11053
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 8:00 am
Location: You can't get here from there

RE: South China/Indo China

Post by mogami »

Hi, In my current game the 2 para Units stood guard in Pakhoi for a few turns and have already left for other areas.
Image




I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
User avatar
jwilkerson
Posts: 7900
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2002 4:02 am
Location: Kansas
Contact:

RE: South China/Indo China

Post by jwilkerson »

several patches ago. I just tested it under 1.4 and nanning falls convincingly to a 4 corps shock attack on 9 Dec. (14 to 1 odds after being hit by an air strike.) Can Japan get reinforcements there by 9 Dec??

If 9 Dec is a sure thing then no ... Japan would just have to let it go ... but were the Japanese moving ?

Reinforcements can get there a day or two later ... unless you bring in the ABN as 2NDACR suggests ... but I'd rather lose them than use the ABN ... while I didn't do this in my current game ... I'm thinking that using the ABN to help in Burma might be the optimal use ( I've used them against southern Sumatra ). But one thought is use them to hold Nanning for a few days .... then pull them out ... moving the supplies and LCU to the correct spots to support Burman Invasion will take more than a week.

So ... still might be possible to hold if ( Shudder ) the ABN are used.
AE Project Lead
New Game Project Lead
moses
Posts: 2252
Joined: Sun Jul 07, 2002 3:39 am

RE: South China/Indo China

Post by moses »

As Chinese I would not hold Nanning. But by taking it I can get those four corps to Wuchow quickly where otherwise they would be a month trudging over the dirt paths to get into the battle. Plus anytime you can retreat a JP unit its a good thing.
User avatar
2ndACR
Posts: 5524
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 7:32 am
Location: Irving,Tx

RE: South China/Indo China

Post by 2ndACR »

I use the 1st Para to drop on Lingayan on turn 1. Then the main invasion force arrives turn 2-3.

The large Nvl Gds at Taan go to Woochow and Foochow to free up the divisions there on turn 1.

The 4th Regiment is moved to Saigon on turn 1 and loaded up for Hanoi as soon as possible. Free's up the 21st division for the PI. 2nd Para goes to Nanning to help out and 3 of the smaller SNLF at Taan are sent on turn 1.
User avatar
mogami
Posts: 11053
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 8:00 am
Location: You can't get here from there

RE: South China/Indo China

Post by mogami »

Hi, No Chinese will ever reach Wuchow by moving through Nanning if I am Japan.
I have 6 current games as Japan. In four of them the Chinese have moved right on Nanning from the start. (And I allow them to give orders on Dec 7)
I have not lost Nanning yet.
In one game I had every air transport group I owned flying in troops and supply to Nanning but it held till relief arrived.
Image




I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
User avatar
2ndACR
Posts: 5524
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 7:32 am
Location: Irving,Tx

RE: South China/Indo China

Post by 2ndACR »

Yep. Only one player has hamstrung me in China so far and that is Panzer Hortland.

But I think he stripped his entire rear area to do it with, so I smell some para drops coming.[:-]

He has stopped me cold at Yenen, Hengsha and threw me back at Wochow with heavy losses to 6 divisions. Took me a month to get over the shock of that happening.
User avatar
jwilkerson
Posts: 7900
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2002 4:02 am
Location: Kansas
Contact:

RE: South China/Indo China

Post by jwilkerson »

But somebody needs to go to Nanning if it will be held. Could really be anybody as there is a friendly airbase there. But has to be somebody who can be flown in and will take a chunk of transports ... if you're hitting Lingayen from Hainan then you're using the Tina's right ? But that leaves everyone else to fly someone to Nanning ( is this a chess game or a wargame !?).
AE Project Lead
New Game Project Lead
Post Reply

Return to “War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945”