Modifying OOB tank Bns?

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Possum
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Modifying OOB tank Bns?

Post by Possum »

Hello all.
I need some advice regarding the soviet tank Bns in the OOB.
I'm aware that the Tank Rgts. in the Tank divisions convert to Tank Brigades.
My question is. What determins which tank regiments will become brigades with the conversion of the tank division to a Tank corps/Mech corps? It is a hard coded thing?
Or could I, by assigning Regiments to new formations, either prevent this conversion or enable a previously non converting regiment to become a Brigade?
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JustAGame
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Post by JustAGame »

Originally posted by Possum:
Hello all.
I need some advice regarding the soviet tank Bns in the OOB.
I'm aware that the Tank Rgts. in the Tank divisions convert to Tank Brigades.
My question is. What determins which tank regiments will become brigades with the conversion of the tank division to a Tank corps/Mech corps? It is a hard coded thing?
Or could I, by assigning Regiments to new formations, either prevent this conversion or enable a previously non converting regiment to become a Brigade?
As copied from the EditWIR documentation:
Reorg # Date : Effects
1 First week of January1942  Corps in slots 100-186 which are of types 25 (corps) and 18 (mech corps) turn to type 23 (army) and are renumbered.
 Divisions (in slots) 430-459 of type 5 (motorized div) turn to type 32 (Rifle divisions)
2 First week of April 1942  Divisions 1-4 (SS) and 12 (G.D) turn to type 4 (PzGren Div)
 Divisions 370-409 (tank divs) turn to type 13 (tank corps). The armor units of the above divs turn to type 15 (Tank Brigade),
 Divs 410-429 (tank divs) turn to type 15 (Mech corps). The armor units of the above divs turn to type 15 (Tank Brigade),

3 Every week starting in April 1942 Armor units 320-699 (Soviet tank brigades) are reequipped with newer tanks : T-70, T-34/85, Valentine, T-34 M40, T-34 M43, if pools permit.
4 First week of Sept. 1943  Divisions 1-6 (SS) and 12 (G.D.) turns to type 3 (Pz Div)
 Divisions 52-64 (Mot) turn to type 4 (Pz Gren)

5 Every week starting in March 1943  The Jpz bns (type 8) armor units of divisions 17-42 have their jagdpanzers upgraded to newer types if pools permit : Marder II, III, Nashorn, JgdPzIV, StugIIIg.

6 Every week starting in January 43  Soviet SPG regts (type 15) have their tanks replaced to Su-76 is pools permit.
7 Every week starting in January 43  1/4 of the KV-II pool turn to Su-152,
 ¼ of the pools of old tanks (T-37, T-60, T-70, T-26, BT-5, BT-7) turn to Su-76,
 ¼ of the pools of T-35, KV-1, KV-1E turn to KV-1S,
 ¼ of the pools of T-28 and T-34M40 turn to T-34M43 (before August) or Su-85 (aug. on),
 ¼ of the pool of KV-1S turn to ISU-122, starting in April 1943,
 SPG regts (type 20) equipped with Su-76 see them replaced by heavy SU/JSU SPGs if pools permit.

8 Every week starting in January 43 Jpz bns (armor units 201-229, type 8) see their tanks replaced to Marder III, Nashorn, JagdPanther or JagdTiger.
9 Every week starting in January 43  ¼ of the pool of Stug-IIIB turn to Stug-IIIG,
 ¼ of the pools of Pz-II, R35, Pz38, Pz-38(e) turn to Marder III
 ¼ of the pools of PzIII f-j turn to Pz-IIIm,
 ¼ of the pool of Pz-Ivd-g turn to Pz-IVh,
 ¼ of the pool of Elefant turn to Jagdtiger,
 ¼ of the pool of Marder III turn to Hetzer,
 ¼ of the pool of M13/40 & M15/42 turn to Marder III,
 Starting in 1944 Panzer bns (armor units 1-200) have a good chance of seeing their tanks reformed with Pz-IVg,h, j, or Panther.

10 Every week starting in January 42 Tank regts (units 320-699, type 16) are reformed with newer tanks : KV-1E, KV-1S, KV-85, IS-I, IS-IIM
That should help you.
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Lokioftheaesir
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Post by Lokioftheaesir »

No

It will be known as just another dirty little war.

Nick

I must not complain. One day my country will REALLY need a brace of US CVN's, 10 Years? Maybe 20 years from now. It will happen when there are 12 Billions+ on our planet.
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Ed Cogburn
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Post by Ed Cogburn »

Originally posted by Lokioftheaesir:

I must not complain. One day my country will REALLY need a brace of US CVN's, 10 Years? Maybe 20 years from now. It will happen when there are 12 Billions+ on our planet.

Who would be the aggressor? The only major neighbor you have is Indonesia, and while they are much more populous than Australia, they are militarily unable to compete with you. They have a small army experienced only in brutally suppressing some of the dozens of their own ethnic groups there, and they lack modern weapons. Besides, who would bother trying to attack you when they know Britian and the US would automatically come to your country's aid?

I think you guys are pretty safe down there. :)
Lokioftheaesir
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Post by Lokioftheaesir »

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:



Who would be the aggressor? The only major neighbor you have is Indonesia, and while they are much more populous than Australia, they are militarily unable to compete with you. They have a small army experienced only in brutally suppressing some of the dozens of their own ethnic groups there, and they lack modern weapons. Besides, who would bother trying to attack you when they know Britian and the US would automatically come to your country's aid?

I think you guys are pretty safe down there. :)
Hi Ed

Yeah, maybe i'm being paranoid but when nations start to overflow their borders from
population pressure governments like to distract them with wars of aggression. We've
so much empty land here that i can just see
someone using their Pop problems (India?)
as an excuse to demand living space for starving millions.(this is 20 years from now remember) I'm not saying they will actually attack because those very same US battle groups will hopefully be there. Some may spit the dummy at this but even though Australia moves closer to asia in trade i'm glad that we move closer to the US culturally. We come from the same social stock and Aus will always seem to me to be on the outside in relations with the Asian giants.
Funny enough though, i think we should also
foster good relations with Russia. Another large country with much empty hinterland.


Nick
Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
JustAGame
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Post by JustAGame »

Originally posted by Lokioftheaesir:


Funny enough though, i think we should also
foster good relations with Russia. Another large country with much empty hinterland.
Nick
China has claimed historical rights and ownership of Manchuria, Mongolia, Southeast Asia, parts of India and regions of the former Soviet Union (I'm sure there are more). More importantly, they have tried militarily to "liberate" several on the list in the last few decades. I would't be surprised if they have Darwin to Sydney on their map as Chinese. Sarcasm aside, your long friendship with us in the USA and a new friendship with Russia could put you on China's list for the day when they are confidant enough to begin their wars of "liberation".
Will our dirty little war against Yugoslavia be known in the future as the "War of the Blue Dress"?
Lokioftheaesir
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Post by Lokioftheaesir »

Originally posted by JustAGame:


China has claimed historical rights and ownership of Manchuria, Mongolia, Southeast Asia, parts of India and regions of the former Soviet Union (I'm sure there are more). More importantly, they have tried militarily to "liberate" several on the list in the last few decades. I would't be surprised if they have Darwin to Sydney on their map as Chinese. Sarcasm aside, your long friendship with us in the USA and a new friendship with Russia could put you on China's list for the day when they are confidant enough to begin their wars of "liberation".
JustAGame

I am aware of the chinese claim on parts of siberia exct. However i think that to realistic the chinese know they can have no claims on the Aus east coast as this is way(way) beyond the realms of their abillities and they are not stupid. Their small invasion of N/Vietmam in the late 70's ended in tradgedy for them and never underestimate your opponents, i think they learnt a sharp lesson from this.
It is not so much china as India i am worried about and the waffling politics of the UN. Could this nation (traditionally leader of the 'nonalligned states) force world opinion into a corner on land ownership , usage, and rights to such an extent as to be seen to have legitimate claim on unpopulated areas such as the Aus NW coast?
I can see it happening and without allies we here are in a bind. There are less people in Aus than reside in the greater New Dehli area.
Our cultural alliance with the US (lets be honest, we are with small differences the same culture) enables Aus to survive as a independent entity.
I will not hide my fears for the world in the 2030-2060 timeframe. VERY heavy events will shake the world and small countries will call on their traditional allies (who are not so stupid as to realise the great worth of their allies) to help them and i hope my country will do is best to enable peace in the world. Not peace as a monopoly of corporate aims but a peace where the average guy like me or you or the bloke in asia has a decent life.

Nick
Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
Ed Cogburn
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Post by Ed Cogburn »

Originally posted by Lokioftheaesir:
I am aware of the chinese claim on parts of siberia exct. However i think that to realistic the chinese know they can have no claims on the Aus east coast as this is way(way) beyond the realms of their abillities and they are not stupid. Their small invasion of N/Vietmam in the late 70's ended in tradgedy for them and never underestimate your opponents, i think they learnt a sharp lesson from this.

Right now, China can't really threaten any of their current neighbors, Tibet was the only country they could conquer. They've had run-ins with Vietnam and India, and accomplished nothing. They can't even invade Taiwan, for heaven's sake. China's army is huge, but otherwise its not impressive. They have about 10,000 tanks, but almost all of them are more than 30 year old copies of the USSR's T-55 tanks. Those of you thinking China is a major power in terms of conventional military forces should skim thru this:
http://www.comw.org/cmp/fulltext/iddschina.html


It is not so much china as India i am worried about and the waffling politics of the UN. Could this nation (traditionally leader of the 'nonalligned states) force world opinion into a corner on land ownership , usage, and rights to such an extent as to be seen to have legitimate claim on unpopulated areas such as the Aus NW coast?

I just can't see that happening. India is working hard to control the size of its population, although not as draconian as what China does. Their population size is a big issue there.

Secondly, national soverignty is a big deal to all the major powers and the UN. We've reached the point where we oppose, in principle, the split-up of any country for any reason. Look at our positions on Kosovo and Macedonia. If any one claimed northwest Australia as theirs, they will be no more successful as Hitler claiming the Ukraine as the breadbasket of a Greater Germany.
Lokioftheaesir
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Post by Lokioftheaesir »

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:



I just can't see that happening. India is working hard to control the size of its population, although not as draconian as what China does. Their population size is a big issue there.

Secondly, national soverignty is a big deal to all the major powers and the UN. We've reached the point where we oppose, in principle, the split-up of any country for any reason. Look at our positions on Kosovo and Macedonia. If any one claimed northwest Australia as theirs, they will be no more successful as Hitler claiming the Ukraine as the breadbasket of a Greater Germany.
Hi Ed

Yes that is true at the moment, but will the UN still think that way in 20+ years? If an Indian Hitler wants the NW Aus breadbasket the only thing that would stop him are US CVN's. (and i give thanks that the US millitary read Mahan and Mackinder) Yes i supose i'm paradoid. But not so much over individual national threats as the simple fact that the land there is empty and the world is filling up.
Remember also your viewpoint. You live in the worlds only millitary superpower. If you suggested that someone would claim Oregon i would laugh till i choked.
I value your comments highly but i dont think you laughed at my scenerio.(ok,maybe you chuckled) You came to a valid geopolitcal conclusion based on facts and past and present trends.
These things however, can change.

Nick

Remember that aphorism. 'The only old King is a paranoid one'.
Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
Ed Cogburn
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Post by Ed Cogburn »

Originally posted by Lokioftheaesir:
I value your comments highly but i dont think you laughed at my scenerio.(ok,maybe you chuckled)

Oops, was I supposed to laugh? :)

I sometimes take things (semi) seriously when I shouldn't. I didn't laugh, but I never took the idea seriously that India or Indonesia would ever do anything as stupid as trying to take part of Autralia's continent.

What really got me to respond was your very pessimistic attitude for the future. Look at it this way, your country isn't the target for every religious lunatic on the planet screaming "Jihad!". I'm convinced within the next 25 years, the US will be the victim of a terrorist nuclear attack, something you don't have to worry about. Now how's that for pessimism? :)


Remember that aphorism. 'The only old King is a paranoid one'.

Yep.
Lokioftheaesir
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Post by Lokioftheaesir »

Ed

OK. Ha Ha :)
Jeeze. a guy cant even be paranoid anymore.
:cool:
Just remember the story of Ivan in the 1920's.
He lived in a remote town and used to run down the street yelling "there comming!! tanks and guns and bombs" and everyone threw rocks at him and said "he's crazy". 20 years later someone travelled a hell of a long way to prove him right.

Ivan lived in a town called Maikop.

I'll be content ED if you can tell me that the pentagon has NO 'possible future action plans' stored away on some shelf that
deal with just the scenerio i put forth.
Aus wants to be an old king.

Nick

PS. Yeh, the fanatics love the big guy, cause they can never be him. Blow a 100kt
weapon in Denver and you've shown him whats what. Then watch you and your friends and your organisation and your supporters and everyone connected to you get obliterated and villified for ever. Thats the word of god.
Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
Ed Cogburn
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Post by Ed Cogburn »

Originally posted by Lokioftheaesir:
I'll be content ED if you can tell me that the pentagon has NO 'possible future action plans' stored away on some shelf that
deal with just the scenerio i put forth.
Aus wants to be an old king.
Uh-oh. Neither of us could imagine the breadth of the scenarios the Pentagon has "wargamed" out of public view. Rumor has it (from some story I remember from years ago) there is a "future action plan" for the invasion of Canada. ?!? So I can't guarantee they haven't thought of China/India/Indonesia taking a piece of Australia's pie and made it into an "action plan". Sorry. :)

[ June 28, 2001: Message edited by: Ed Cogburn ]
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