Smolensk and the supply issue

Kuniworth · Post by **Kuniworth** » Thu May 03, 2001 1:11 am

On july 16 1941, the 28th motorized division under Guderian captured Smolensk. Great achievement.

Unfortunately this historical event cant be done in matrix version of war in russia. Why? Because the panzer-corps runs out of supply if you try to press forward as hard as the historic counterparts.

This is a shame. I dont know if its just me. What can I do to avoid having my panzer running out of supply if I try to press forward like Guderian did. Its pathetic to see the combat value reduced to 7-10 after one turn out of supply.

Please help! Post your tips and strategies on supply and advancing units.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Thu May 03, 2001 2:37 pm

Originally posted by Kuniworth:
Unfortunately this historical event cant be done in matrix version of war in russia. Why? Because the panzer-corps runs out of supply if you try to press forward as hard as the historic counterparts.

This problem has always been there. Several have pointed out the Germans can't advance as quickly as they did historically.

Fixing this would be far from easy, because its not a "bug", its a design flaw. Problems with the game's design require much more work to fix than a shallow bug.

I don't think the programmer will tackle this problem in the short term, and by the time he does get around to this GG may have his remake (not produced by Matrix) done, assuming it doesn't get cancelled.

We're just going to have to live with this problem, at least several months, probably much more than that.

How far away are your troops from Smolensk when blitzrieg supply ends. Perhaps an extra turn of level 10 supply would make a difference?

Kuniworth · Post by **Kuniworth** » Thu May 03, 2001 6:31 pm

sorry fingers slipped...29th motorized divison it was....

design flaw....how the hell can you miss a thing like this creating a game. Matrix games should feel ashamed over their product, I really start to hate this game now realizing its not my fault.

Overall I find the gamr system with readiness and supply creating unhistorical problems. Its a pity that this fine game is limited so much by this idiotic solution to supply and movement.

Kuniworth · Post by **Kuniworth** » Thu May 03, 2001 6:55 pm

To answer your question Ed; I seem to reach Mogilev and the end of the Pripet marsches. How about you?

In the Matrix remake it seems that units out of supply loses much more of its CV than in the original version.

Another astonishing stupid idea by Matrix is not compensating for reducing the plot-movement at SL 0. That way it is now surely assured that the german player never will reach Smolensk because the russian player just have to cut the supply-lines for one turn or so with his extremely weak units. Playing Russia against the computer will now be even more simple than before.

Iam and old player of this game. I started with Second Front on the amiga and carried on to the good old days with original WIR. Im deeply disappointed with Matrix failure to solve this so well known problems among us players.

Kuniworth · Post by **Kuniworth** » Thu May 03, 2001 6:57 pm

sorry misunderstood...at the actual date - 16th of july - Im at Mogilev. At the end of blitzkrieg supply smolensk is already captured. But it still is to late and to unrealistic.

Mike Dixon · Post by **Mike Dixon** » Thu May 03, 2001 7:17 pm

Reality check - this is a free product -it has some flaws but Matrix games have done a fantastic job updating it.

Mike Dixon · Post by **Mike Dixon** » Thu May 03, 2001 7:21 pm

Reality check - this is a free product -it has some flaws but Matrix games have done a fantastic job updating it.

Mike Dixon · Post by **Mike Dixon** » Thu May 03, 2001 7:21 pm

Reality check - this is a free product -it has some flaws but Matrix games have done a fantastic job updating it.

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Thu May 03, 2001 8:09 pm

Originally posted by Kuniworth:
...
In the Matrix remake it seems that units out of supply loses much more of its CV than in the original version.

Another astonishing stupid idea by Matrix is not compensating for reducing the plot-movement at SL 0. That way it is now surely assured that the german player never will reach Smolensk because the russian player just have to cut the supply-lines for one turn or so with his extremely weak units. Playing Russia against the computer will now be even more simple than before.

Iam and old player of this game. I started with Second Front on the amiga and carried on to the good old days with original WIR. Im deeply disappointed with Matrix failure to solve this so well known problems among us players.

Arnaud, the programmer on this, has made some significant changes to the early rail conversion, boosting it to 3 hexes through late July. Without gutting the system, as Ed said changing the original movement/plotting method would be extremely difficult, and gutting the system would have required a huge amount of work. Playing human against human, the Axis player has very little chance of reaching Moscow - even less than historically. The changes should improve this quite a bit.

Air supply for the panzers is less effective than before, but equipment losses is greatly reduced also, so the panzer korps can rebound quickly. There are and always have been supply issues with the game, and as you say it has never been possible to reach Minsk on a historical timeline. It would take an extremely complex supply model to model history, and then this game with its memory limits which are already pushed to the brink for many players, would not run.

I have played the game for 9 years myself, and only tried the Soviet side against the computer a couple of times. The attacker AI is just too lame to be competitive as the Axis in 1941. Anyway, the changes Arnaud is working on will help the initial blitzkrieg at least to a limited extent, and should make Moscow a legitimate target now, even though Minsk and Smolensk may not be reached on a historical timeline still. This release should be ready soon, like a couple of weeks.

Yogi Yohan · Post by **Yogi Yohan** » Thu May 03, 2001 8:19 pm

Originally posted by Kuniworth:
design flaw....how the hell can you miss a thing like this creating a game. Matrix games should feel ashamed over their product, I really start to hate this game now realizing its not my fault.

Ashamed?! Matrix has not CREATED this game they have IMPROVED it inmensly. This problem pertains to the original Gary Grigsby game design. Bash him if you need to bash someone!

Ahshamed? Matrix? Grumble... No, you guys should be PROUD!

Thanks guys for all the improvements, and even more for the editing tools that allow us to edit and tweak things to our personal taste. Wouldn't be playing WIR without you!

Kuniworth · Post by **Kuniworth** » Fri May 04, 2001 12:54 am

Well the game was inteded to be sold to the public. I dont now about you but I dont like to pay money on a product that doesnt work 100%....

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Fri May 04, 2001 2:08 am

Originally posted by Kuniworth:
Well the game was inteded to be sold to the public. I dont now about you but I dont like to pay money on a product that doesnt work 100%....

The only group ever legally able to sell the game was SSI, who still retains all rights to the game. Matrix never had the intention of selling the game, and was only allowed to modify the code on the basis of not charging anything for the update and providing all support for the versions released. It sounds like your issue should be with SSI if it is about paying money for a game that doesn't work 100%.

Matrix did not "create" this game, just modified the existing code to fix bugs and tweak the gameplay. Considering the changes made by SSI and Grigsby in the early 90s between the 1.0, 1.10 and 1.13x versions, the Matrix changes aren't any more unrealistic than in those, where Axis replacements were cut in half in some versions, blizzards tweaked, etc. I personally prefer this version overall, but I can understand why you may not - it is all personal preference. You can pick whichever version you prefer, assuming you can find the specific one.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Fri May 04, 2001 12:29 pm

Originally posted by Kuniworth:
design flaw....how the hell can you miss a thing like this creating a game. Matrix games should feel ashamed over their product,

You have obviously chosen to spout off on something that you clearly have no idea about. WiR was produced by SSI back in '93 or '94, not Matrix. SSI allows Matrix to update and improve the game as long as Matrix doesn't charge money. This act of generosity allows us to get an improved version of this game, because everyone else knows SSI would never bother spending time and money improving an old game when the game is a hard-core milsim. The size of the fan club out there for such a game, or the update of such a game, is simply too small. Matrix is a small company with a plan to appeal to those wargamers, the ones SSI doesn't give a damn about.

I really start to hate this game now realizing its not my fault.

Feel free to stop playing it at any time.

Overall I find the gamr system with readiness and supply creating unhistorical problems. Its a pity that this fine game is limited so much by this idiotic solution to supply and movement.

I'm sure Gary Grigsby would appreciate getting intelligent, cogent, and calmly rational suggestions like yours.

In the Matrix remake it seems that units out of supply loses much more of its CV than in the original version.

Yes, and that is deliberate. Running out of supplies should lead to a painfull result, especially when out of supply for more than one consecutive turn.

Another astonishing stupid idea by Matrix is not compensating for reducing the plot-movement at SL 0.

Why should there be compensation? Getting stuck at SL 0 is supposed to be painful. Don't allow your panzers to get in SL 0 in the first place. I don't see any astonishingly stupid idea here.

That way it is now surely assured that the german player never will reach Smolensk because the russian player just have to cut the supply-lines for one turn or so with his extremely weak units.

Wherever the Soviet player does this, you split your units too, especially infantry units (giving you several extra korps to work with) allowing you to hold the flanks of the breakthrough, and destroy these weak Soviet units.

Playing Russia against the computer will now be even more simple than before.

The AI is an idiot. Its always been easy to beat.

Iam and old player of this game. I started with Second Front on the amiga and carried on to the good old days with original WIR.

Do you know how many bugs there were in that old version of WiR? A bunch. You'd be surprised in the number of bugs Arnaud found in the combat formulas. Part of the reason Arnaud is having to alter rail conversion to tweak the game is because after all of the bugs he's fixed the game now plays tougher for the Germans.

Im deeply disappointed with Matrix failure to solve this so well known problems among us players.

Like I said, this problem is a design flaw, not a simple bug. The programmer does not have the time or the authority to rewrite the game from scratch to fix this problem. It is not even expected of him to fix all known problems. They simply want him to fix as much as he can, but there are problems like this one that he can't really "fix", not without rewriting half the bloody game.

Well the game was inteded to be sold to the public. I dont now about you but I dont like to pay money on a product that doesnt work 100%..

More proof you speak without a clue as to what you're talking about.... Matrix is never going to sell this game, its free, and always will be, and the programmer (Arnaud) has mentioned coming back to this after 6 months or so, and trying to fix more problems and possibly taking a stab at improving the AI, so there's at least hope for even a better version later on if Matrix allows it. If Gary's planned remake of WiR never happens, Matrix's version of WiR is all we've got.

By the way, how many people do you know who are NOT bothered by paying for a game that doesn't work 100%? Considering the state of the computer gaming industry, when was the last time someone had a game work 100% right out of the box? WiR isn't perfect, and never will be, but the Matrix version is a major improvement over the original SSI version.

[ May 04, 2001: Message edited by: Ed Cogburn ]

matt.buttsworth · Post by **matt.buttsworth** » Sat May 26, 2001 10:23 pm

Dear Everybody,
If someone has been playing a game since the Amiga version (I have too) it cannot be such a bad game. How many strategy games live 15 years and still have thousands discussing, playing, and updating them.
Well done Gary Grisby (also for war in the pacific), well done Matrix for updating the game.
It is one of the best strategy wargames ever made.

PS - playing German does seem a lot harder, although the changed game is very interesting especially with the realistic placement of the factories at Kursk.
I am looking forward to the updated version very much as I want to play PBEM (I have never done that) and have no one to play here.
A desertion factor on the Russian side (see my post) could be an interesting way to even it up if possible.
Excellent game no matter how anyone grumbles.

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Tue May 29, 2001 7:35 pm

I've done the test with human&human controls.
Results are that it is barely possible to reach Smolensk at 20th July. One must push straigthforward to Smolensk. Supply ends just a bit west of Mogilev and causes panzers to stop for one turn. I think that two extra rail conversions at first turn would change it and Germans would have a _chance_ to capture Smolensk at 13th July and there their supply ends as it was historicaly. I would also add that capture of Smolensk by whole panzer korps at 13th July would be even greater success than historical one. But it would be possible only in the case of straigthforward rude attack without any maneuvres and so would be not favorable for German player.

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Tue May 29, 2001 8:46 pm

Originally posted by Mist:
I've done the test with human&human controls.
Results are that it is barely possible to reach Smolensk at 20th July. One must push straigthforward to Smolensk. Supply ends just a bit west of Mogilev and causes panzers to stop for one turn. I think that two extra rail conversions at first turn would change it and Germans would have a _chance_ to capture Smolensk at 13th July and there their supply ends as it was historicaly. I would also add that capture of Smolensk by whole panzer korps at 13th July would be even greater success than historical one. But it would be possible only in the case of straigthforward rude attack without any maneuvres and so would be not favorable for German player.

The new version will allow one extra conversion through July 20, thus giving 3 extra by July 13 (no conversion occurs on the first turn). In testing I have been able to drag the panzers into Smolensk on July 20, which was okay by me as I was not trying to replicate history. As Mist says, you will be able to do it historically but whether it is a good decision is a different matter, and will probably depend on the situation.

matt.buttsworth · Post by **matt.buttsworth** » Tue May 29, 2001 9:01 pm

How long Rick do you think it will be until the testing on the new version is done and the rest of us can use it?
And will it be posted like version 3.0 on the matrix site.
I find the updating of Wir and the ongoing work people are doing to get it even better to be fantastic. It is like a new game and I am enjoying it more than ever even though I have been dabbling with it for almost twenty years now.
Well done to everyone involved.

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Tue May 29, 2001 10:35 pm

Originally posted by Matthew Buttsworth:
How long Rick do you think it will be until the testing on the new version is done and the rest of us can use it?
And will it be posted like version 3.0 on the matrix site.
I find the updating of Wir and the ongoing work people are doing to get it even better to be fantastic. It is like a new game and I am enjoying it more than ever even though I have been dabbling with it for almost twenty years now.
Well done to everyone involved.

Thanks for the comments. I am just getting to the point where I can judge the balance. There were a number of major changes to play balance, so it takes some thorough testing against a person to really tell. Hopefully within 2 weeks, but I don't know and don't control it myself.