Rampant pro policy thread

[dinsdale]

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer

dinsdale, I have said it before, I will obviously need to say it again.

Sometimes my opinion is sourced by a multitude of sources that DO have the game, HAVE played the game, and if I elect to support a view point of people I know to trust, then my not having had the game, is not relevant in all cases.

What exactly has anyone else's experience go to do with being so delighted at expensive games with no manuals? That's what this thread was about after all, how exceptionally wonderful it is and how that huge, 4 post, thread at Wargamer was unnecessarily knocking matrix.

Now if I started a thread on how great it was that gasoline prices were beneficial, I'd at least not do it until I bought some.

My idea of a "danger sign" is everyone insisting a game has to be in stunning richly detailed real time 3d to be any good, because it is required to attract joe blow gamer who is often to dim to be capable of enjoying an old style game that is "too boring".
First off, I don't care if that just insulted joe average gamer.
Second, that just fuels the myth joe average gamer is ever going to want to become joe average wargamer.

It might make you better to feel superior about your recreational chioces, but that's all they are: choices. As it's easier to buy, see and get information on mainstream games than wargames, I'd say the hobby was in serious trouble. That's not the same as thinking someone is an imbecile for liking Doom3, or call him "Joe"

All real time 3d has given us, is a great wealth of copy cat crud in most cases. I read the reviews eh, most real time 3d games being produced or that have been produced, feature stunning graphics and lame game play.

No, 3D has pushed the envelope of PC games and made them sell comparative numbers as consoles. There are plenty games I don't like which are 3D, but I wouldn't call them crud.

Highway to the Reich, no real time 3d.

errr it's a real time game.

Strategic Command, no real time 3d.
Uncommon Valour, no real time 3d.
War in the Pacific, no real time 3d.
Battles in Normandy, no real time 3d.
Steel Panthers, no real time 3d.

3D is generally not an important feature for grand strategy, or operational strategy. You may as well say that they don't have hip-hop soundtracks, therefore the lack of hip-hop soundtracks makes them good.

I can't think of a single game using real time and 3d, that anyone has been willing to state was a "great wargame".
Combat Mission uses 3d, but they gave it WEGO system, and I think that makes a substantial difference.
Highway to the Reich uses real time, but isn't 3d, and that makes a difference.

Of course, I can use exclusionary and inclusionary criteria too. Not really worth it though.

The only danger I see for computer wargaming, is game makers waste to much time and effort pandering to people that never wanted to be wargamers in the first place, and not enough energy delivering a great wargame in the first place.

The danger I see is that only mega-hits with watered down gameplay such as Total War are in stores. Wargames now reside in the download or mail-order abyss. Maybe you don't mind as you don't seem to buy many games anyway, but I would like as many new wargames as there are FPS, and I'd like to be able to pick them up at a store if need be, with a manual.

There is a reason why people still pay top dollar for ASL on eBay when they can't buy if from MMP fast enough. It's because it is a real wargame, and has remained as such regardless of the trend in compuer wargames to imply you need to dummy down a product to make it sell.

Right, and ASL boardgames are going to outsell say Monopoly or the latest party game is it?

It will never be "cool" to be a historian, as much as it is "cool" to be a quarterback. Thus, I don't expect in 10 years or 20 years, to see a massive influx of wargamers, regardless of how "cute" a wargame designer makes his product.

err I don't see why sports is somehow in competition with wargames. I've played competative sports since the age of 5, doesn't make me not understand wargames. Looks to me like you're inventing exclusion to promote some specialness.

There is no redeeming factor which makes BiN any more worthwhile than say RollerCoaster Tycoon or Deerhunter. It's just a personal choice. It doesn't make anyone superior, of give them any greater taste, it's just an entertainment choice.

What our hobby needs is just something "fresh".

How can it get fresh when any change is greeted with derision or suspicion?

[bostonrpgmania]

I agree with dinsdale. As once Desk Top General implied in his wargame report in PC gamer (US edition), what wargamers need to really realize is the tendency of war gamers of feeling some sort of pseudo 'superiority' about playing 'war games'. It is just another field of gaming, our beloved hobby. The reason why Matrix forum was so interesting was the kind comments for newbie players such as myself. [;)]
BTW, I will miss his desk top general column. It was so good and wish Bill a good luck in his future project

[Hexed Gamer]

dinsdale, is it just that you refuse to agree with anything I say?

I sometimes wonder about that

You are a whiner, a game under 100 bucks is not expensive.
You can stomp your feet till they hurt, and they will still not be expensive.

People freaking out over an "expensive" game at 60 bucks and pouting that it is only a download seem to miss the reality, it would have been listed at MORE than 60 bucks with the pointless box manual and cd in all likelihood.
Thus, 60 bucks likely IS the reduced price.
Some pouting over how a download should be "reduced" to 40 bucks missing the obvious, you are already seeing the reduced price.

3d AND real time, I was not suggesting there was a negative of one in the exclusion of the other.

I am particularly aware of the average gamers education level.
If they don't like being called dumb, tough, I spent the decades learning what I know, I earned being smarter, to bad if the Doom 3 people can't handle that I DO possess a higher measure of intellect.

It also explains why I don't even want those "cheaper" games for free. The sameness, the utter shallowness, the total boring pointlessness of them is painful in my opinion.
If they can sell lots of them, its just that there are just so dang many joe average dudes out there, and a very small amount of people like me.
Thus, trying to sell a game requiring a serious analytical mind, will just require the maker to settle for smaller more expensive items.

Expensive items are always items of interest to only a select few.
It's called reality.

Tomorrow I will be a member of a niche hobby and the day after and the day after.
The hobby will always be a niche hobby until fate decrees humanity suddenly gains a love affair with substantially increased IQs and an obsession with serious historical simulations.

" How can it get fresh when any change is greeted with derision or suspicion?"

You seem to be so convinced anything I say is wrong, you can't see through to the obvious.
HTTR is indeed new and fresh. It took real time and actually made good use of it.

But there is room for more.
A computerised game in the manner of Up Front would likely sell massively well. The nice thing about Up Front, is a good poker player makes a good opponent.
But no one wants to make anything but 3d real time programs requiring yet more upgrades to hardware.
Screw any company that thinks I feel like upgrading for just yet another stupid 3d real time design that likely possesses a moron AI to make the whole point of playing not worth the time.

[Kevinugly]

Now if I started a thread on how great it was that gasoline prices were beneficial, I'd at least not do it until I bought some.

Spurious line of argument! By this definition the only discussions one could enter into are those on subjects in which one had direct experience.

No, 3D has pushed the envelope of PC games and made them sell comparative numbers as consoles.

This year was the first one that the amount of time spent playing console games exceeded that spent playing on the PC. Take a look at the gamestore shelves, take a look at sales figures, you're wrong!

quote:

Highway to the Reich, no real time 3d.
errr it's a real time game.

Obviously a slip since later 'Hexed' says

Highway to the Reich uses real time, but isn't 3d

I think that's called 'selective editing'

The danger I see is that only mega-hits with watered down gameplay such as Total War are in stores.

.

So how is the 'Total War' series 'watered down'? Could we have specifics rather than sweeping generalisations. I presume you've played both games released so far quite extensively so your expert opinion would be much valued.

Wargames now reside in the download or mail-order abyss. Maybe you don't mind as you don't seem to buy many games anyway, but I would like as many new wargames as there are FPS, and I'd like to be able to pick them up at a store if need be, with a manual

So would I but it isn't going to happen, 3d or not 3d.

quote:

It will never be "cool" to be a historian, as much as it is "cool" to be a quarterback. Thus, I don't expect in 10 years or 20 years, to see a massive influx of wargamers, regardless of how "cute" a wargame designer makes his product.
err I don't see why sports is somehow in competition with wargames. I've played competative sports since the age of 5, doesn't make me not understand wargames. Looks to me like you're inventing exclusion to promote some specialness.

It's a metaphor, deal with it on that level.

[riverbravo]

ORIGINAL: dinsdale

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer

What our hobby needs is just something "fresh".

How can it get fresh when any change is greeted with derision or suspicion?

Dont waste youre time bud.

He changed his name but he hasnt changed his tune.[8|]

Havent you been slithering around other forum boards slagging youre old stomping ground because you just cant seem to get it?

Arent you the one who claims to leave and never to return multiple times?

Isnt all this just a ploy to try to get devs to keep wargames at low specs to run on systems that ran out of gas in 98?

Is this not an elitist attitude toward the hobby YOU claim to want to see thrive and grow?

Isnt this the same old debate you rehash every couple of months or so?Cant stand to see other people having fun when you cant because of a low end system compared to todays standards?

Everyone was under the impression that Les was dead[>:] killed off by the guy who created him (thank god)[>:].The same guy/girl who says he is going to re-invent himself comes back as Hexed Gamer (how fitting) to just say the same old thing again and again and again.[>:]Whats wrong?Werent getting the attention you wanted at other boards talking trash about this place so you decide to come back and stir the pot?

We understand, you cant run new games and dont want them to advance because you cant run them.We have heard it all before multiple times out of you.

You have changed youre name now change youre tune.[8|][>:]

[dinsdale]

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer

dinsdale, is it just that you refuse to agree with anything I say?

I sometimes wonder about that

Perhaps because we have very different opinions on things?

You are a whiner, a game under 100 bucks is not expensive.
You can stomp your feet till they hurt, and they will still not be expensive.

GO BUY ONE THEN. Stop preaching about expense/inexpense when you are not part of the equation. You started this thread to emphatically state your support for the pricing scheme, yet you have no plans to take part in it. I call that hypocritical, especially when you're calling one of Matrix's customers who has bought most of their releases over the last year a whiner.

Understand now?

3d AND real time, I was not suggesting there was a negative of one in the exclusion of the other.

So at some point the magic connection between 3d and real time automatically makes a game bad. Gotcha. Obviously The Sims2, which will probably be the best seller of all time, is now automatically bad.

people can't handle that I DO possess a higher measure of intellect.

[8|]

It also explains why I don't even want those "cheaper" games for free. The sameness, the utter shallowness, the total boring pointlessness of them is painful in my opinion.

Yes, it's just your opinion. Sort of like arguing whether red is an intrinsically better colour than blue.

Expensive items are always items of interest to only a select few.
It's called reality.

Humvees are selling in very healthy numbers, hardly a select few. Wargaming is down to a select few because of the choices made over the years. This latest choice is going to trim the herd even more. But then you don't buy games, so you don't care how many future games come out.

You seem to be so convinced anything I say is wrong, you can't see through to the obvious.
HTTR is indeed new and fresh. It took real time and actually made good use of it.

No, you contradict yourself by posting how advances are ruining games, then say that games need new advances.

[Hexed Gamer]

Are you looking for some odd form of Patton thread awatd dinsdale

"yet you have no plans to take part in it."

At what point have I ever said I have no intention to ever buy either WitP or BiN?

I have every intention of buying both.

It's not my fault I wasn't born rich.
So I might be a little further back in the line up, it doesn't mean I am not in it.

I also don't get to see most movies on opening day too.
I normally go to the theatre on the lower priced day.
Sometimes I splurge and go opening day (I was unable to wait for LotR).

I don't think you really understand my posts at all dinsdale, your rebutals are the only thing wandering if you ask me hehe

[Goblin]

Les, did you really just call anyone who plays any game besides the ones that you do stupid?

No offense Les, but I could match you brain cell for brain cell, and still be able to watch Jeopardy at the same time.

Trust me, there is a difference between smart and pompous ass. Look it up.


Goblin

[dinsdale]

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer
I have every intention of buying both.

It's not my fault I wasn't born rich.
So I might be a little further back in the line up, it doesn't mean I am not in it.

So it's fine for you not to buy now, but to call others who don't whiners? Perhaps your superior intellectual capacity finds that easy to reconcile, but I find it strange.

I've no intention of going back and forth through more shambling ruins of the pathos-train-of-thought you copyrighted as Lester, so Ciao.

[Goblin]

ORIGINAL: dinsdale

I've no intention of going back and forth through more shambling ruins of the pathos-train-of-thought you copyrighted as Lester, so Ciao.

Amen brother, amen.


Goblin

[Orzel Bialy]

Trust me, there is a difference between smart and pompous ass. Look it up.

Goblin

Goes to show the truth behind the old saying "you can't change a leopards spots". New screen name...same old mindset. [8|]

[bostonrpgmania]

I am particularly aware of the average gamers education level.
If they don't like being called dumb, tough, I spent the decades learning what I know, I earned being smarter, to bad if the Doom 3 people can't handle that I DO possess a higher measure of intellect.

Oh well,,,, he has gone too far. I played doom 3, I played KP, I played Civ, I played SE IV, I played Battlefield 1942 depending on my mood of the day....

[EricGuitarJames]

ORIGINAL: bostonrpgmania

I am particularly aware of the average gamers education level.
If they don't like being called dumb, tough, I spent the decades learning what I know, I earned being smarter, to bad if the Doom 3 people can't handle that I DO possess a higher measure of intellect.

Oh well,,,, he has gone too far. I play doom 3, I play KP, I play Civ depending on my mood of the day....

Strangely enough so do I[;)]

I've learned over the months spent on these forums that one always has to take the opinions of 'Hexed' here with a large 'pinch of salt'. 'Forgive and forget' because he's not referring to you or me (well he'd better not be referring to me anyway[8D]).

[Goblin]

ORIGINAL: Orzel Bialy

Trust me, there is a difference between smart and pompous ass. Look it up.

Goblin

Goes to show the truth behind the old saying "you can't change a leopards spots". New screen name...same old mindset. [8|]

Me?[;)]


Goblin[:D]

[Hexed Gamer]

Hey guys, I retired a persona, I didn't die.

Oh if you really are going, then go, don't let me stop you

Ah that means go by the way, you know leave, as in don't return as in you know don't respond.

I didn't change my spots, on the contrary, I decided anyone didn't like the real spots, could drop dead.

Really, you know, drop dead. Spin doctor that till hell freezes over.

And for the record, I likely AM a great deal smarter than most of you whiners, but I am also wise enough to know how little merit there is in worrying over whether you care.

Don't expect me to care.

Matrix Games is a good producer of games.
Tough luck if they are to expensive for you. Digtal download or otherwise.
Get used to playing arcady games for the lower end of the IQ scale if you want them priced under 40 bucks.

I play lightweight games like the rest of you.
But at least I recognise them for what they are.
Mindless indulgences requiring no intellect.
When I want a serious game, I am prepared to make the investment one requires.

[Hexed Gamer]

Note to staff, the thread is getting nasty.

Might as well close it down.

All has been said that needs to be said (aside from some closing rants I am sure).

I am off in search of lighter conversation.

[KG Erwin]

I will state up front that I have never paid more than $30 or $40 for a single wargame, whether board or PC. I found Close Combat versions I-III at a PC game Store for $30. Couldn't pass it up, and this was maybe 3 years ago.

Paying retail price for a PC game is for suckers. Period. I say the same thing for people who pay retail for music CDs. You are getting screwed, pure and simple.

This is why Matrix needs to stay OUT of the retail business. Direct sales is the only way to go. At the risk of sounding like a cheerleader, the asking price for the complete MCs PLUS the complete 8.2 SPWaW is a hell of a bargain.

Now, the last time I went direct to a company for a game sale was with Ron Dockal's Schwerpunkt Games Russo-German War. I paid $40, and the tech support has been exemplary. Matrix is generally following this model, but with a vastly-expanded series of product. David is no fool. He knows that his company will only survive on the quality of its product, and the support it offers for its products.

All this to say, the golden age of PC Wargaming is here and now. We are in the midst of it. I'm disappointed by some of the negativity that I'm reading, as the hobby is alive and well.

Are you guys getting spoiled with the glut of product? Is that what it is? Has the wargaming market reached its saturation point? These are the questions that need to be asked. I saw this in the 1980s, with the glut of board games that were released and then unbought. The supply actually exceeded the demand. Are we in danger of that now? You guys tell me.

[Orzel Bialy]

ORIGINAL: Goblin

ORIGINAL: Orzel Bialy

Trust me, there is a difference between smart and pompous ass. Look it up.

Goblin

Goes to show the truth behind the old saying "you can't change a leopards spots". New screen name...same old mindset. [8|]

Me?[;)]

Goblin[:D]

No you silly man...I didn't say anything about you...that would have been about "a man who doesn't change his underwear". [:'(]

[MadDawg]

And for the record, I likely AM a great deal smarter than most of you whiners

Lol, well please make sure you let us know when you are going to put that mighty intellect of yours to work and actually put some thought into your posts would you, just so we don’t miss it.

From what Ive read thus far you are the only one whom has been nasty in this thread. People are allowed to disagree with you you know, it doesn’t mean that they are less intelligent or important, they just have differing opinions.

Dawg

[Goblin]

To go along with your massive intellect, I suggest a spell checker too, Les. Then you will be dressed for the part you profess.[;)]

Goblin