The price

Battles In Normandy is the third game in the Decisive Battles game series. Battles in Normandy recreates all aspects of the Normandy campaign, from the landings on the first day to the final climax of the campaign at Falaise. Strategic Studies Group rewrote the Decisive Battles game engine for Battles in Normandy with a host of new special rules for amphibious and airborne operations, plus a huge number of other enhancements.

Moderator: alexs

User avatar
Adam Parker
Posts: 1848
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2002 8:05 am
Location: Melbourne Australia

RE: The price

Post by Adam Parker »

ORIGINAL: Gregor_SSG

Nice theory of game publishing, but it fails to take into account the difference between the relative and the absolute. The employees of SSG need a certain amount of money each year, just to be able survive and to keep making wargames.

For the record, Korsun Pocket, despite winning awards and stellar reviews, failed this basic test. I was only able to keep working for SSG by subsidising my employment with money from a divorce settlement. This is not a sustainable basis for business!

We have to be realistic about how many copies we are going to sell and that dictates the price we have to charge. The poster who suggested we could sell 40,000 copies with the right pricing was definitely dreaming.
Gregor

Cheers Gregor. But what you're looking for is venture capital, if not benevolent venture capital and it does exist (and I too wish to find it [;)] )

Fear not, myself and many colleagues across a variety of efforts in this hobby feel the same way and I must tell you, the catch cry that war game development is done "for the love of it" continues to wear thin on me.

Of course state of the art AI performance and innovative design does not come at the loss of merely a few hours labour (Aussie spelling for an Aussie).

However, you can't deny the reasonable expectation that by cutting the costs of production, one isn't entitled to expect some flow back to the consumer.

You've just got to look at the issue of increasing volume. Personally, the limited number of scens coupled with an escoteric subject matter, limited the potential of KP. It went so far as you having a confusing battle exacerbated by newbies not even understanding basic NATO iconography.

"Korsun" just didn't logically follow "Bulge" as a well-known campaign in the general war gaming public's eye.

Adam.
User avatar
IanAM
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2003 12:51 am
Location: Aberdare, Wales
Contact:

RE: The price

Post by IanAM »

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

You've just got to look at the issue of increasing volume. Personally, the limited number of scens coupled with an escoteric subject matter, limited the potential of KP. It went so far as you having a confusing battle exacerbated by newbies not even understanding basic NATO iconography.

"Korsun" just didn't logically follow "Bulge" as a well-known campaign in the general war gaming public's eye.

Completely agree there - indeed, the whole issue of not having a scenario in which to play as the US/UK probably did harm to the sales of KP.

I'm not saying do not model the Eastern Front, or that it's not worth having Axis forces playable, but surely bundling such options with a smattering of more familiar battles could only be an advantage and widen the appeal of the game...

I bought KP and didn't really start getting into it at all until the user made scenarios on the Run5 website started to appear.

I'm sure BiN will appeal to a wider audience...even if many are slightly jaded by the sheer number of Normandy/D-Day games.
Ian

hill107.net - documents and photos relating to the Battle of Arnhem, Battle of Crete, WW2 Airborne
2gaulle
Posts: 323
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:51 pm
Location: Montreal

RE: The price

Post by 2gaulle »

"Korsun" just didn't logically follow "Bulge" as a well-known campaign in the general war gaming public's eye.

there is something true here. After buying KP I only play KP scenario many month after the Bulge one. In fact I have played ATD before KP.
User avatar
Clipper1968
Posts: 445
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2004 10:25 pm
Location: LA, Ca

RE: The price

Post by Clipper1968 »

ORIGINAL: IanAM

Completely agree there - indeed, the whole issue of not having a scenario in which to play as the US/UK probably did harm to the sales of KP.

It doen't matter as I like playing as german.[:)]

"Panzer Vorwaerts!"[:D][:D][:D]
"s'instruire pour vaincre"
User avatar
IanAM
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2003 12:51 am
Location: Aberdare, Wales
Contact:

RE: The price

Post by IanAM »

ORIGINAL: Pumba1968
It doen't matter as I like playing as german.[:)]

So do I, some of the time, and depending on a game scenario.

But the majority of Matrix's market must surely be in the US/UK/Australia/Canada etc. - and I'm willing to bet a big chunk of that market enjoy playing for their 'home side' - the Western Allies - and aren't as likely to buy a WWII game that doesn't involve that option...
Ian

hill107.net - documents and photos relating to the Battle of Arnhem, Battle of Crete, WW2 Airborne
User avatar
Clipper1968
Posts: 445
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2004 10:25 pm
Location: LA, Ca

RE: The price

Post by Clipper1968 »

Yes I think you are probably correct but the main purpose of a wargame is to offer good time as you can get the opportunity to establish your strategies and tactics, so whatever the country you are playing:it is the way I am thinking...[:)] The most important aspect is the theater of operations which allows an interesting challenge.

I have even been playing those British against the Emperor, too sad...[;)]and the French army.
"Vive l'Empereur".[:D]
"s'instruire pour vaincre"
marc420
Posts: 224
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2002 2:36 am
Location: Terrapin Station

RE: The price

Post by marc420 »

Actually, I've never really found that much with wargames. At least that's not my impression.

I play a lot against the AI. And I'll play either side. As I get good at a game, I tend to take the weaker side for a challenge against the AI.

I've only played a few PBEM games over the years with various games. But I generally have not encountered many people who insist on playing only one nation.

If anything, I feel like I've run into players that are more comfortable playing Offense or Defense than I've encountered players who insist on playing a particular nation.

If you are curious, it might be interested to go read the PBEM forum on the Run 5 / SSG site. From that you might get a feel for how many players only want to play one side.

In the tournaments that Run5 does, the sides are handed out randomly. I've seen other formats where two players play two games against each other, each taking both sides between the two games.

In general, I get the sense that most players play these games for the competition or problem-solving aspects than from any sort of nationalist point-of-view.

I haven't really paid much attention. Are many of SSG's or Matrix-published games translated to languages other than English?
Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism. ~George Washington
marc420
Posts: 224
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2002 2:36 am
Location: Terrapin Station

RE: The price

Post by marc420 »

Hi Gregor.

I really do appreciate what you guys do. And I'm not under any ideas that ya'll are getting rich and driving Ferraris.

However, when it starts getting to the point where I need a divorce settlement to afford to buy games, I'm at least going to whine a bit about it. :)

OK, I'm exaggerating ... a bit.

I've said it before out here, but I'll risk repeating it. I'll buy BIN at $60. But that's a compliment to you guys down at SSG. If I didn't think this was one of the best games to come out in years, I wouldn't buy it at that price.
Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism. ~George Washington
User avatar
freeboy
Posts: 8969
Joined: Sun May 16, 2004 9:33 am
Location: Colorado

RE: The price

Post by freeboy »

I've said it before out here, but I'll risk repeating it. I'll buy BIN at $60. But that's a compliment to you guys down at SSG. If I didn't think this was one of the best games to come out in years, I wouldn't buy it at that price
Gregor,
Ditto on the best game part, and I would by this on a maybe basis exceipt for the new found pbem component... wow this is great, hope it gets released soon
"Tanks forward"
User avatar
David Heath
Posts: 2529
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2000 5:00 pm

RE: The price

Post by David Heath »

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker
ORIGINAL: Gregor_SSG

Nice theory of game publishing, but it fails to take into account the difference between the relative and the absolute. The employees of SSG need a certain amount of money each year, just to be able survive and to keep making wargames.

For the record, Korsun Pocket, despite winning awards and stellar reviews, failed this basic test. I was only able to keep working for SSG by subsidising my employment with money from a divorce settlement. This is not a sustainable basis for business!

We have to be realistic about how many copies we are going to sell and that dictates the price we have to charge. The poster who suggested we could sell 40,000 copies with the right pricing was definitely dreaming.
Gregor

Cheers Gregor. But what you're looking for is venture capital, if not benevolent venture capital and it does exist (and I too wish to find it [;)] )

Fear not, myself and many colleagues across a variety of efforts in this hobby feel the same way and I must tell you, the catch cry that war game development is done "for the love of it" continues to wear thin on me.

Of course state of the art AI performance and innovative design does not come at the loss of merely a few hours labour (Aussie spelling for an Aussie).

However, you can't deny the reasonable expectation that by cutting the costs of production, one isn't entitled to expect some flow back to the consumer.

You've just got to look at the issue of increasing volume. Personally, the limited number of scens coupled with an escoteric subject matter, limited the potential of KP. It went so far as you having a confusing battle exacerbated by newbies not even understanding basic NATO iconography.

"Korsun" just didn't logically follow "Bulge" as a well-known campaign in the general war gaming public's eye.

Adam.

Hello Adam

I agree that Korsun may not had been the best batte to select but I have heard many gamers complain "What this battle again, why not do something new" When we selected Korsun Pocket no one had done that battle and we wanted to do something different. Battles in Normandy required a major design change. The whole SSG team really expanded the game system to make Battles in Normandy work so well. This is not just another battle in the same old system.

David
User avatar
IanAM
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2003 12:51 am
Location: Aberdare, Wales
Contact:

RE: The price

Post by IanAM »

ORIGINAL: marc420

Actually, I've never really found that much with wargames. At least that's not my impression.

I play a lot against the AI. And I'll play either side. As I get good at a game, I tend to take the weaker side for a challenge against the AI.

I've only played a few PBEM games over the years with various games. But I generally have not encountered many people who insist on playing only one nation.

If anything, I feel like I've run into players that are more comfortable playing Offense or Defense than I've encountered players who insist on playing a particular nation.

In general, I get the sense that most players play these games for the competition or problem-solving aspects than from any sort of nationalist point-of-view.

I haven't really paid much attention. Are many of SSG's or Matrix-published games translated to languages other than English?

OK...perhaps it's just me then [:)]

I don't think it's nationalistic though, just that I think I identify with 'my' nation more, and so I think it adds to the immersion in and enjoyment of the game.

Possibly it's only because I tend to know more about 'my' side and some of the individuals involved - and that is probably because I have learnt and read around the subjects from the British point of view, from books written mainly by UK/US authors...

Either that or I've got a Nelson/Wellington/Montgomery complex. [:D]

Anyway...enough of thaking this thread off-topic!
Ian

hill107.net - documents and photos relating to the Battle of Arnhem, Battle of Crete, WW2 Airborne
User avatar
Clipper1968
Posts: 445
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2004 10:25 pm
Location: LA, Ca

RE: The price

Post by Clipper1968 »

Any idea about the price for "game on demand" option?[&:]please[&o][&o][&o]
"s'instruire pour vaincre"
Arsaces
Posts: 39
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 11:32 pm

RE: The price

Post by Arsaces »

A frightening post by Gregor_SSG. If a well established outfit like SSG which has received superlative reviews for an outstanding game like Korsun Pocket is struggling to meet ends meet, we have some reasons to be worried about the future of wargaming. I've seen Matrix Games in bargain bins selling for a pittance. I'm sure the decision to go digital is a sound one. If the only way to keep the games alive is to increase prices, well do it. Wargames can be played for years and years, they're not like shooters which become obsolete three months later.

By the way I am not American or an Anglo Saxon and so was glad to see a game like KP which addressed another subject than the Bulge/Arnhem/Normandy.


Cheers

ORIGINAL: Gregor_SSG
ORIGINAL: Adam Parker
ORIGINAL: JSS

Adam,

BiN's price is an incredible value for what you're getting. I really think it's worth more than US$100.

Gents once again when it comes to price many are failing to realize the key point.

The retail cost of a game reflects:

1. Development
2. Production - a) Disc, b) Box, c) Manual, d) Barcoding, e) Packaging, f) Production labor
3. Legals
4. Wholesaler mark-up
5. Transport - a) Warehousing, b) Delivery, c) Import/export, d) Currency conversions
6. Merchandising
7. Retailer mark-up

Nice theory of game publishing, but it fails to take into account the difference between the relative and the absolute. The employees of SSG need a certain amount of money each year, just to be able survive and to keep making wargames.

For the record, Korsun Pocket, despite winning awards and stellar reviews, failed this basic test. I was only able to keep working for SSG by subsidising my employment with money from a divorce settlement. This is not a sustainable basis for business!

We have to be realistic about how many copies we are going to sell and that dictates the price we have to charge. The poster who suggested we could sell 40,000 copies with the right pricing was definitely dreaming.

If the SSG website gets cluttered with pictures of our new Ferraris, (the traditional choice of game developers who have suddenly made bucketloads of money), then you would be entitled to cry foul, but I can assure you that its not going to happen.

Gregor
User avatar
willgamer
Posts: 900
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2002 11:35 pm
Location: Huntsville, Alabama

RE: The price

Post by willgamer »

I believe Matrix is doing an above average job bringing games to market in our capitalistic, market driven environment. An aspect that could be improved is the always tricky area of setting customer expections.

FWIW, I believe a possible overlooked profit opportunity is selling supplemental physical media such as game CDs, games boxes, maps, chart/tables, research notes, battlefield photos, related books (become an Osprey reseller?), etc. This could be one way to reduce the cost of the digital download maximizing customer buy-in while selling high margin experience enhancers to many of us who have the means to indulge our hobbies.
Rex Lex or Lex Rex?
User avatar
TheHellPatrol
Posts: 1588
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:41 pm

RE: The price

Post by TheHellPatrol »

ORIGINAL: willgamer

I believe Matrix is doing an above average job bringing games to market in our capitalistic, market driven environment. An aspect that could be improved is the always tricky area of setting customer expections.

FWIW, I believe a possible overlooked profit opportunity is selling supplemental physical media such as game CDs, games boxes, maps, chart/tables, research notes, battlefield photos, related books (become an Osprey reseller?), etc. This could be one way to reduce the cost of the digital download maximizing customer buy-in while selling high margin experience enhancers to many of us who have the means to indulge our hobbies.
Agreed, a fine quality leather recliner with a diamond studded Matrix/SSG logo would be a perfect addition for those of us with champagne tastes and caviar budgets[:D][;)].
A man is rich in proportion to the number of things he can afford to let alone.
Henry David Thoreau

BravoZulu
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 4:04 pm

RE: The price

Post by BravoZulu »

ORIGINAL: Gregor_SSG
Nice theory of game publishing, but it fails to take into account the difference between the relative and the absolute. The employees of SSG need a certain amount of money each year, just to be able survive and to keep making wargames.

For the record, Korsun Pocket, despite winning awards and stellar reviews, failed this basic test. I was only able to keep working for SSG by subsidising my employment with money from a divorce settlement. This is not a sustainable basis for business!

We have to be realistic about how many copies we are going to sell and that dictates the price we have to charge. The poster who suggested we could sell 40,000 copies with the right pricing was definitely dreaming.

If the SSG website gets cluttered with pictures of our new Ferraris, (the traditional choice of game developers who have suddenly made bucketloads of money), then you would be entitled to cry foul, but I can assure you that its not going to happen.
And I can certainly appreciate all of that. But at $60, you also impair my (and other fence-sitters') ability to support you. Please don't take this (or any prior post) as me trying to tell you how to run your business. It was just my perspective on how the price impacts my decision making process.
Hartford688
Posts: 260
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 6:40 pm
Location: Amsterdam, The Netherlands

RE: The price

Post by Hartford688 »

ORIGINAL: TheHellPatrol
Agreed, a fine quality leather recliner with a diamond studded Matrix/SSG logo would be a perfect addition for those of us with champagne tastes and caviar budgets[:D][;)].
[/quote]

Oh please. No diamonds. So nouveau riche. Subtle silver inlay. Nice. Will it be available by DD? Now that is a value added product. With a beer holder. For Dupont Saison or Duvel. None of JSS's stuff.
Hartford688
Posts: 260
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 6:40 pm
Location: Amsterdam, The Netherlands

RE: The price

Post by Hartford688 »

Of course I am writing this rubbish to pass the time staring at the forums to see BiN is ready for download. Now would be good.
User avatar
TheHellPatrol
Posts: 1588
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:41 pm

RE: The price

Post by TheHellPatrol »

Silver tarnishes too quickly, maybe platinum?[;)] Today is wait for BiN day, that's for sure. I even had a dream about my first turn last night[8|]...so...close...[&o]
A man is rich in proportion to the number of things he can afford to let alone.
Henry David Thoreau

User avatar
SlapBone
Posts: 252
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 6:16 pm
Location: Houston, TX

RE: The price

Post by SlapBone »

ORIGINAL: TheHellPatrol

Silver tarnishes too quickly, maybe platinum?[;)] Today is wait for BiN day, that's for sure. I even had a dream about my first turn last night[8|]...so...close...[&o]

That's weird... I had a dream about your first turn also.
Post Reply

Return to “Decisive Battles: Battles in Normandy”