MIDWAY: Worth it or not ?

[Xargun]

What do you guys think about Midway ? Is it a worthy target for Japanese invasion or not ? And why ?

Xargun

[von Murrin]

I haven't really given it much thought yet, but I think Wake is the biggie for a Japanese player. Midway is too far out, too close to Pearl, and too... worthless?

I'd rather concentrate my efforts in the South Pacific. Suva? Canton? Noumea?

Midway does best for the Allies as an advanced sub base (Wake is waaaay better, but what can you do.) or as a nifty lure for an incautious IJN attack.

[Tenzan]

Midway's a tough case..It's really the 'boundary line' post between the safe IJ bases and Hawaii-That's how I tend to think of it- An Outpost of the main base belt running Einweitok-Wake-Marcus. Thinking about it that way, it's worth it to me to take as a simple 'tripwire' outpost defending firstly Einweitok, and secondly Wake. But, I wouldn't throw more than an independant mixed brigade into defending it, or, waste much shipping in supplying it-but, as a forward air post, it could do alot in engineering a chance for the 'decisive battle' fan in all of us, and deeply disrupt Allied plans..


In short, Midway is worth it more for it's temporary use, than as a piece of property, to me..A nice 'porch light' but, little else.

[ZOOMIE1980]

The value of attempting to take Midway is exactly the historical reasons Yamamoto decided to do it, to draw out the Americans in a decisive battle while he still had the upper hand. Decimating the remaining American fleet in a decisive battle would set them back over a year on their timetable, until the Essex class carriers start arriving, enmasse. The base, in and of itself, is of little value. It is what might, could, should be involved in taking it.

[von Murrin]

Forget the Decisive Battle doctrine. Take Suva and end mail shipments to Oz, then turn towards Pearl and yell, "Come get some!"[;)]

[pad152]

Anyone seen the Japanese AI try to take Midway?

[von Murrin]

No.

Anyone else? [:D]

[Bandkanon]

ORIGINAL: von Murrin

Forget the Decisive Battle doctrine. Take Suva and end mail shipments to Oz, then turn towards Pearl and yell, "Come get some!"[;)]

I tend to agree. But won't that also allow the Allies to build up and overwhelm Japan anyway, even though it might be later than historical. The chance to destroy the USN carriers is just too much to not try. Anyway, by trying to take Suva or Pearl you force a Decisive Battle.

[MadDawg]

I just did a quick count and it does put you (just!) within the extended bombing radius of Pearl with Betty's. [:)] If you got it early enough they might be able to cause some disruption at Pearls port forcing the allies to use assets there that they could better use elsewhere.

Dawg

[GBirkn]

Unescorted Betties don't sound like a very good bet to me -- more use for training Allied fighter pilots than anything else, I'd have to think.

[MadDawg]

Yeah, I wasnt thinking of using them to any effect, just wanted to force the allied player into keeping some more AA and air assests there than he may otherwise need too. [:)]

If we want to talk about cause Pearl some more serious trouble, then Johnson Island looks rather interesting. Im guessing it would be within range of zeros from there, though Id have to check [:)]

[Alikchi2]

The problem with bombing Pearl, I think, is like GBirkn said - there isn't enough gain and too much loss for the Japanese. The Japanese lose irreplacable bombers and fighters along with pilots, while the Allies at most have to devote a fraction of their available strength.. However. One full strength raid from Johnston with a -lot- of escort and little to no warning .. like Dec 7th, except land based. Could work if the Allied player isn't paying too much attention.. Okay, I'm just rambling at this point. [:'(]

[von Murrin]

ORIGINAL: Bandkanon

I tend to agree. But won't that also allow the Allies to build up and overwhelm Japan anyway, even though it might be later than historical. The chance to destroy the USN carriers is just too much to not try. Anyway, by trying to take Suva or Pearl you force a Decisive Battle.

Look at it this way. Attack Midway and you have an exposed salient that does nothing but annoy. Attack Suva and you've just cut off Oz, leaving you free to rampage all over SoPac's future territory. You also have the benefit of being able to reinforce the South Pacific and hold a broad, even front. That's far better than letting the Allies build up in the SP to then go on to hit you from two directions.

If someone did that to me, I'd much prefer to go after Suva than the Marshalls or Marcus/Wake. You need that other front to attrite the IJAAF and the IJN before you really push hard for the center and PI. Keep in mind that any of the six initial USN CV's you might kill come back as Essex CV's. They're nowhere near as important as 4-6 months of delayed ops in the SP are, and that doesn't account for your having that time to reinforce the area.

[MadDawg]

ORIGINAL: Alikchi

However. One full strength raid from Johnston with a -lot- of escort and little to no warning .. like Dec 7th, except land based. Could work if the Allied player isn't paying too much attention.. Okay, I'm just rambling at this point. [:'(]

Particually if the allies happen to have some of their damaged BB's or ever CV being repaired. As you say though, its risky and youd have to do it fast and get lucky [:)]. It does already have a nice size 4 airfeild though.

Dawg

[Alikchi2]

ORIGINAL: MadDawg
Particually if the allies happen to have some of their damaged BB's or even CV being repaired. As you say though, its risky and youd have to do it fast and get lucky [:)]. It does already have a nice size 4 airfeild though.
Dawg

Now that would be a dirty trick. Me likes. [:D] Of course, you'd have to expect pretty swift retribution.. still, I bet a lot of Allied players will strip Pearl of defenses in order to fortify places like Wake, Midway, etc. It's at the least worth a shot.

[MadDawg]

I guess the key is to do it early in the war when the allied are still gathering themselves togeather, but even then it would be tough. [:)]

Its an interesting little base the more I look at it....it would cause the allies more trouble getting supplies down to Aus, too. Of course, it will be well within range of B-17's and other medium bombers, so youd need to plan it carefully and take a lot of AA and air support.

Dawg

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: MadDawg

I guess the key is to do it early in the war when the allied are still gathering themselves togeather, but even then it would be tough. [:)]

Its an interesting little base the more I look at it....it would cause the allies more trouble getting supplies down to Aus, too. Of course, it will be well within range of B-17's and other medium bombers, so youd need to plan it carefully and take a lot of AA and air support.

Dawg

I'm at 1 Feb 1942, and my CentPac forces are already very impressive. I have 4 CV's, 4 BB's, and over a dozen CA's, and loads of DD's with large numbers of land based aircraft of all kinds. I have enough, it appears to already start a limited offensive campaign in the Central Pacific. All I really lack are landing craft and base forces, which are pretty big deals, and what keeps me from even thinking about doing anything yet.

But if Japan attacks Midway or Johnson Is. it may well be suicide at this point, unless they could devote four full divisions to it. I could still use AP's to land my 3+ divisions I already have in CentPac (and some of those are MONSTER 330+ assault value divisions).

[mavraam]

If Midway is so insignificant to Japan doesn't it follow that as an Allied player you should not expend a lot of effort to defend it? Especially early in the war when you are still potentially vulnerable to a decisive battle.

Why not let Japan expend the time, supplies and effort to take it then keep it supplied while you build up your forces? If they keep a big fleet there to defend it, they are vulnerable elsewhere. If not, the allies can always re-take it later when they can afford a full scale engagement.

Seems like Midway would be an albatross to Japan.

IMHO.

[von Murrin]

Exactly. As the Allies it will pay to defend it as a forward outpost and sub base. If you have Wake, that's Midway x10. If the Japanese take it, well, then it's just that much less troops and aircraft and ships to fight in the SP.

[UncleBuck]

The Biggest problem I see with Japan on either Midway or Johnston Island is keeping them supplied. Allied Submarines woudl not have that far to go to cut them off. Also Is either Johnston Island or Midway in Ferry Range of any other Japanese held Islands? If they are nost it could be very expensive if you are being pressed very hard to lose all teh land based planes.

ub