unit experience

[daniel123]

i was just wondering. do units have experienec levels(vetren,average,green). would these levels affect combat ability of units. can units lose or gain levels?

[Capitaine]

I believe units' strength is in part based on their "veteran status" (or not), since some identical units are stronger than others. However, there isn't any kind of dynamic changing of a unit's seasoning in the game. At an operational scale, I doubt that kind of thing would be very appropriate (although I concede a case could be made for some effect like this; I personally don't find it that overly material on the short-term operational scale). [:)]

[daniel123]

a number of US divions started out as green and over time of the Normandy campaign became vetran units.

[JSS]

ORIGINAL: daniel123

a number of US divions started out as green and over time of the Normandy campaign became vetran units.

Daniel,

BiN allows the scenario designer to build in exactly what you've mentioned.

There are three categories of units: Substandard (simulates green units or low quality units), Standard (veteran units), and Elite. The categories deal with subtle intangibles (i.e. adds bonus to combat or doesn't contribute to shift bonus calculation).

The designer specifies what capabilities a given division has (i.e. attack/defense value, tank/anti-tank values, mobility and supply capability, etc...). This is how you sort out green units from low quality units...

Finally BiN has the evolving unit feature. A green unit could at a set point in the battle evolve into a veteran unit. Designer must specify when this happens.

JSS

[freeboy]

Does bin have the Elite factor like tao3/kpok? Moves odds one on the chart?

[JSS]

Elite unit +1 attack/ -1 defend effect on combat odds is same as KP to the best of my knowledge.

[daniel123]

it would be nice if the losses a unit takes influences the advance or decline of a units experience. ie. a number of step losses and the need to add a step would decline a unit rating and combats would add to the rating.

[freeboy]

Surprised that in a game of this scale, 1 day turns, units could change based on experience... 101st performed very well, and yet was "combat green" probably comes in as elite would be my guess...

[JSS]

ORIGINAL: daniel123

it would be nice if the losses a unit takes influences the advance or decline of a units experience. ie. a number of step losses and the need to add a step would decline a unit rating and combats would add to the rating.

Daniel,

Think these are great comments... have pondered this before. Have limited experience with how the current feature works.

Think this would be a great addition to the follow up to BiN. Really interesting idea.

JSS

[JSS]

ORIGINAL: freeboy

Surprised that in a game of this scale, 1 day turns, units could change based on experience... 101st performed very well, and yet was "combat green" probably comes in as elite would be my guess...

Freeboy,

Whilst the 101st had no combat experience they were an incredibly well trained unit and deserve elite status. A similar argument can be made for 2d Infantry Div arriving in Normandy without combat experience yet their veteran status is well deserved as their pre-combat training was also excellent.

JSS

[freeboy]

yep, 101 was my example of an elite unit which was combat green.. would replacements be at elite level? How about the Germans? Some units ariving should have elite status, but would their replacement steps? Just a thought
who is up for a blind bin tourny run 5 will start after release.. can not wait

[daniel123]

if replacement of a step caused the loss of a combat experience bonus it would make the replacement of a partial step loss with it loss of experience a minus to do so. it would make the player plan for a way to reinforce or withdraw a unit. it would make the slugging match around Caen in the aar a different type of combat.

[freeboy]

I don't think this is changable in the new editor.. my guess.. does anyone know?
Can steps being replaced affect units elite status?

[Gregor_SSG]

ORIGINAL: freeboy

I don't think this is changable in the new editor.. my guess.. does anyone know?
Can steps being replaced affect units elite status?

The time frame for the game is not really long enough to warrant consideration of reducing a unit's experience status just because it took a replacement. Also, the question of status goes beyond just a statistical analysis of the experience of fighting men. It encompasses a whole range of less tangible elements.

The men of the Allied airborne divisions were elite, partly because they were told that they were, partly because they were trained that way and partly because they had the cream of the recruitment crop.

The Hitler Jugend were elite, even though most of them couldn't have had much combat experience. Soviet Guards divisions were created from formations that had performed exceptionally well in combat. In the Red Army, this almost always meant taking very heavy casualties, yet formations created around the survivors deserved their elite status.

Given that elite status is, in part, something of a self-fulfilling prophecy, it's not something that should easily be lost.

Gregor

[freeboy]

Thanks Gregor,
Do the units gain experience in BIN.. ie go up from green.. and what would that mean?
Thanks and cannot wait

[Gregor_SSG]

ORIGINAL: freeboy

Thanks Gregor,
Do the units gain experience in BIN.. ie go up from green.. and what would that mean?
Thanks and cannot wait

Units don't go up in experience. However, we do use the evolving units function to upgrade the 21st Panzer Division halfway through the battle, as it got Mk IVs to replace its 38t tanks during the fighting. There is nothing to stop someone from using that function to make any green units that survive to a certain point into standard units, and/or bumping up their unit stats as well.

Gregor

[freeboy]

Hello G,
Thanks for being involved here, can you tell us how many units currently do a midstream upgrade.. that is pretty cool...
are there variable release times as an option for the german player?

[Gregor_SSG]

ORIGINAL: freeboy

Hello G,
Thanks for being involved here, can you tell us how many units currently do a midstream upgrade.. that is pretty cool...
are there variable release times as an option for the german player?

In BIN there are only two isntances of evolving units. One is the 21st Panzer Division mentioned previously.

The other is much more important. All Allied supply trucks that arrive with the initial landings actually go through two upgrades. The trucks that arrive in the first few turns are very limited in their abilities, and this limitation in turn affects the every Allied unit. So in the first 8 days, the Allies simply cannot support deep penetrations or advance too far, regardless of how many Germans they kill.

Each upgrade improves the supply situation for the Allies, reflecting their steadily improving logistics. After the second upgrade, (which happens on turn 18) they can easily support massive offensives and deep penetrations.

One simple feature like this can have a profound effect on how the battle unfolds.

Gregor

[marc420]

12th SS Panzer Division and 1st SS Panzer Division would both be interesting units ... along the same sort of lines as the 101st Airborne.

Both of these SS units had been virtually destroyed in fighting in Russia. Both had retained their cadres of experienced officers, non-coms and some soldiers, but were largely filled in with replacements who had never seen combat.

But given the performance of both of these units, they should certainly be elite units (and not need an upgrade).

A post above made me think of this. These SS Panzer units definitely thought of themselves as elite units. And this was passed on to any replacements coming into a unit. There's a definite "this is who we are and how we do things" attitude that gets drilled into any replacements that come in.

And these units, like the paratroopers, did get the elite of the replacement coming through. The paratroopers only get those who volunteered and made it through jump school. And the SS divisions were getting replacements through the SS training system and not the regular system.

I've just finished reading Ambrose's Band of Brothers. And there's another good book out there on the 1st SS Panzer Div in Normandy. Can't think of the name right now, but if you spot the book, its a great read as well.

In Easy company of the 101st Airborne, it seems to be mainly the non-coms who made that an Elite unit. Some outstanding officers as well, but that wasn't uniform across the unit. Sounds like they had some other officers with whom the best they could do is stay out of the way of the non-coms. In the 1st SS Panzer, they had both excellent officers and non-coms to lead the replacements through combat.

But in terms of modeling something in a game that covers a month or two of combat, it seems that if a unit either has the elite cadre surviving from earlier campaigns, or if it has gone through an intense training program, like the pre-normandy 101st, then calling it an elite unit even though most the indivduals in the unit are green makes a lot of sense.