true [:D]
Ok, half-convienced. I'll give RDOH a bash.
I won't buy this game without a demo. Why?
Moderator: Arjuna
RE: I won't buy this game without a demo. Why?
ORIGINAL: Taipan
All that does is put the thought "what are they hidding" into my mind.
We're definitely not hiding anything. We are just not prepared to invest the money to develop a proper demo at this stage. Why don't you go and ask your local retailer to show you the game running on one of their machines. And if you like it thank the retailer for his/her "service" and buy the game.
It's an interesting thing about games and demos. How many other products costing around $50 do you buy without getting a demo. Do you get a demo of a meal at a restaurant or of a live performance at a theatre. No you don't. So why do you expect that we can afford to provide a demo free of charge. The cost of developing a proper demo is not insignificant. It requires special code to handle an interactive tutorial. If the tutorial is not interactive - ie you rely on the user to read a manual - then the user doesn't bother. Now for simple shoot'em ups or for games with a well established game system, sure the user can pick things up pretty quickly. But for innovative systems like HTTR it doesn't happen. We confirmed that with the survey we did with the RDOA demo, which was non-interactive. The end result is that users can't work out what is happening, don't appreciate what is happening, get frustrated and conclude that the game is a dud. As you can see from reading the forums and the reviews, HTTR is not a dud, but that is what a poor demo does. It ends up costing you sales.
Like you we've been bitten once and so we're twice shy this time around. We agree that a demo with an interactive tutorial would be good, but the likely sales volume doesn't warrant the investment required. For you the risk amounts to $50. For us it would amount to around $20-30,000. That transaltes to thousands of extra games that would have to be sold just to recoup the investment. Now as we sell more games and become profitable we may for future products be able to do something along these lines. But for now the prudent thing for us is to focus our limited resources on developing new products.
RE: I won't buy this game without a demo. Why?
Forgive me, but I feel a need to repost. I'll maybe regret making an emotional statement later, but here goes.
It is somewhat insulting and offensive when someone implies that PG/beta team would intentionally hide, misrepresent, or plan to defraud consumers.
I've worked with PG for over a year now. Clearly, they are a business and function as all successful businesses must to survive. Certainly, no one knows this better than the beta testers who come up with the most wonderful ideas while Dave with great diplomacy then proceeds to add them to the ever growing "wish list". From what I have seen in my association, the small staff of PG will endure personal hardship rather than compromise on the core principles of the product they want to produce or do anything less than proper to earn revenues. And, of course, the beta testers are an auxiallary work force with no financial interest in the success of PG or the product line.
Anyone is within their right to question the decision not produce a demo or to dislike the product which was produced, but those associated with the product are entitled to be consider of having high standards of integrity until they have demonstrated otherwise.
===== 04/21/04 =====
It's perfectly reasonable for potential customers to want to try a demo of a game.
It's perfectly reasonable for the developer/publisher to think the ROI (return on investment) for producing a demo is not warranted.
Given these two positions, Panther, Matrix, beta testers, and members of the community have endeavored to provide as broad and copious information about the game to prospective buyers as possible.
Certainly, no one is interested in "burning" anyone or pocketing someone's hard earned money under false pretenses. Those involved with the product of have a strong heart felt desire that those who purchase it should get their money's worth and then some.
And, of course, there is still the old RDOA demo floating around on the Net. HTTR is not RDOA, but clearly HTTR is a descendant of RDOA. So, if the RDOA demo tickles your fancy, then you probably will enjoy other games from its lineage.
I think that should be sufficient to make a reasonable informed decision. Sometimes, even after having a game in one's possesion, only time will tell if it becomes a classic that keeps you enthralled for years or if it is just a passing fling. Like everything in life; there are no guarantees.
It is somewhat insulting and offensive when someone implies that PG/beta team would intentionally hide, misrepresent, or plan to defraud consumers.
I've worked with PG for over a year now. Clearly, they are a business and function as all successful businesses must to survive. Certainly, no one knows this better than the beta testers who come up with the most wonderful ideas while Dave with great diplomacy then proceeds to add them to the ever growing "wish list". From what I have seen in my association, the small staff of PG will endure personal hardship rather than compromise on the core principles of the product they want to produce or do anything less than proper to earn revenues. And, of course, the beta testers are an auxiallary work force with no financial interest in the success of PG or the product line.
Anyone is within their right to question the decision not produce a demo or to dislike the product which was produced, but those associated with the product are entitled to be consider of having high standards of integrity until they have demonstrated otherwise.
===== 04/21/04 =====
It's perfectly reasonable for potential customers to want to try a demo of a game.
It's perfectly reasonable for the developer/publisher to think the ROI (return on investment) for producing a demo is not warranted.
Given these two positions, Panther, Matrix, beta testers, and members of the community have endeavored to provide as broad and copious information about the game to prospective buyers as possible.
Certainly, no one is interested in "burning" anyone or pocketing someone's hard earned money under false pretenses. Those involved with the product of have a strong heart felt desire that those who purchase it should get their money's worth and then some.
And, of course, there is still the old RDOA demo floating around on the Net. HTTR is not RDOA, but clearly HTTR is a descendant of RDOA. So, if the RDOA demo tickles your fancy, then you probably will enjoy other games from its lineage.
I think that should be sufficient to make a reasonable informed decision. Sometimes, even after having a game in one's possesion, only time will tell if it becomes a classic that keeps you enthralled for years or if it is just a passing fling. Like everything in life; there are no guarantees.
2021 - Resigned in writing as a 20+ year Matrix Beta and never looked back ...
RE: I won't buy this game without a demo. Why?
It's an interesting thing about games and demos. How many other products costing around $50 do you buy without getting a demo. Do you get a demo of a meal at a restaurant or of a live performance at a theatre. No you don't.
Ah, but can you not ask for your money back if the food is second rate? [;)]
It is somewhat insulting and offensive when someone implies that PG/beta team would intentionally hide, misrepresent, or plan to defraud consumers.
It was not meant to come across that way, and if you took it that way I apologise. Every game on the market has been put there with all the right intentions, but many a time expectations of the game from the designer do not equate to the product that ends up on the shelf. Time restriction & pressures from the publisher can both lead to short cuts in the end product.
From your side it is not viable to relase a demo of any kind, and the reasons for this I can see are valid.
From my side, I can not at this stage commit myself to the game. I have viewed a nice slide showing aspects of the game & and have played a demo game which is similar to this game. Both impress me, but in the end a demo would convince me one way or the other.
Sometimes, even after having a game in one's possesion, only time will tell if it becomes a classic that keeps you enthralled for years or if it is just a passing fling. Like everything in life; there are no guarantees.
I was like that once. Buy a game, play it a while, put it on the shelf, never play it again, repeat. I have bought only four games in two years, and all of them were bought after extensive research. The result is that I still play all four games now, and this is because I made sure I really would like the game and would continue to play it after the initial gloss of purchase wears off. At present I can't say in my mind that I would have the same sort of commitment with this game.
I might seem to come across as a tight fisted prick. I'm not, but the days of buying a game just to let it gather dust on the shelf after a couple of weeks are a thing of the past for me. Money is always tight with a growing family, and Aus$90 is a commitment which I do not take lightly. $90 is a night out on the piss with your mates if you are single. $90 for me is my kids new clothes and a pair of shoes or a nice dress for my wife, or a game that I would play and play and play.
RE: I won't buy this game without a demo. Why?
ORIGINAL: Taipan
................but in the end a demo would convince me one way or the other.
Actually it will not and can even be misleading.
If a game has 1,000 features the demo might only promote 50 of them. The remaining 950 remain hidden - unless you get the full game.
Further, the first version of a game often needs a patch. Unfortunately a demo will always be a demo of the unpatched version.
So there are arguements both ways.
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RE: I won't buy this game without a demo. Why?
Actually, I wasn't saying that I buy games to give them a try and see what happens ... I was more referring to the fact that it is hard for me to predict in advance what will be my long-term interest in a game. Some personal examples:
(1) I purchased a number of highly praised flight sims around 1998 or so. In 1999, I started playing EAW online. I got totally caught up in it and did nothing else for two years. (ignoring the fact that the online community was about to move to IL-2) Finally, one day in 2001, I had enough and just retired from it. I could not have predicted any of this prior to purchasing this game.
(2) I purchased CMBO based on rave reviews and wanting to try something different. I attempted to play it quite a bit and couldn't figure it out and put it down for six months. However, during a slow point on some projects I was doing I had time to study the BTS forums. I picked up the game again to apply the concepts I read about it. CMBO and the follow ons became favorites that I continue playing until today. I could not have predicted that.
(3) I purchased RDOA based on a quick look at the demo and wanting to try something different. I attempted to play it quite a bit, but was mostly clueless and lost a lot. I did perservere and finally began to see some light. The more or I played, the more the game's elegance and the fundamental principles of ground combat were revealed to me. While still largely clueless, I was invited to join the Beta Team making me one of the only non-wargamer and non-veterans on the team. I could not have predicted that.
(4) I purchased EU2 and HOI based on rave reviews (more so EUI and EUII) and a strong following of customers. I've played both these games a number of times. The game systems have all the components and features that should make a totaly capitivating game for me. And yet, I find them somewhat monotonous to play. I continue to follow their development and evolution and one day may try them again. For now, they have been set aside. I could not have predicted that.
---
So, like you, I try to spend my money wisely. However, I just find myself unable to be absolutely sure how I will respond to things over the long-term; with the exception of my wife of 20+ years.
(1) I purchased a number of highly praised flight sims around 1998 or so. In 1999, I started playing EAW online. I got totally caught up in it and did nothing else for two years. (ignoring the fact that the online community was about to move to IL-2) Finally, one day in 2001, I had enough and just retired from it. I could not have predicted any of this prior to purchasing this game.
(2) I purchased CMBO based on rave reviews and wanting to try something different. I attempted to play it quite a bit and couldn't figure it out and put it down for six months. However, during a slow point on some projects I was doing I had time to study the BTS forums. I picked up the game again to apply the concepts I read about it. CMBO and the follow ons became favorites that I continue playing until today. I could not have predicted that.
(3) I purchased RDOA based on a quick look at the demo and wanting to try something different. I attempted to play it quite a bit, but was mostly clueless and lost a lot. I did perservere and finally began to see some light. The more or I played, the more the game's elegance and the fundamental principles of ground combat were revealed to me. While still largely clueless, I was invited to join the Beta Team making me one of the only non-wargamer and non-veterans on the team. I could not have predicted that.
(4) I purchased EU2 and HOI based on rave reviews (more so EUI and EUII) and a strong following of customers. I've played both these games a number of times. The game systems have all the components and features that should make a totaly capitivating game for me. And yet, I find them somewhat monotonous to play. I continue to follow their development and evolution and one day may try them again. For now, they have been set aside. I could not have predicted that.
---
So, like you, I try to spend my money wisely. However, I just find myself unable to be absolutely sure how I will respond to things over the long-term; with the exception of my wife of 20+ years.
2021 - Resigned in writing as a 20+ year Matrix Beta and never looked back ...
RE: I won't buy this game without a demo. Why?
Why don't you go and ask your local retailer to show you the game running on one of their machines.
No store in the U.S. that I know of has ever been willing to do that, and yes...I've asked before. I know GameStop used to have a very liberal return policy. They basically would let you return for *any* reason within 7 days. If they still have that, maybe that would be a good way to check the game out in a risk free fashion?
RE: I won't buy this game without a demo. Why?
Ey, you won't get much more in a demo from what you can get reading reviews (pro or user) and, specially, AARs, if you have seen screenshots you know how it looks like. If you liked the AARs or
MarkShot tip thread just buy it, if not, demo is not going to happen, so...
MarkShot tip thread just buy it, if not, demo is not going to happen, so...
RE: I won't buy this game without a demo. Why?
Hate to beat a dead horse but ...
In looking on the Matrix forums I found an old topic from 2002 on the wargame community polls asking “Ok, what do you think of demos?”.
I guess the question is still raging on. I've noticed at least one person has done an about face with regards to demos. It looks to me like it breaks down to the “have and have not”. After all, why produce a demo for people who may not have the money to buy your game
The “have” buy a game because of a review, a screenshot, a picture on a box or a recommendation and have the money to possibly waste on a game they won't play. Just because somebody recommends it doesn't necessarily mean it's your cup of tea.
The “have not” need every bit of information (including demos) and then some to shell out their hard earned money.
Guz, you took a chance and got lucky.
Arjuna, I fully understand and appreciate your point of view. The more great games you put out the better for the whole wargame community.
I find this hard to believe unless you're trying to get the C&C guys to buy into the RTS part of the game.
Anyway, I've played the RDOA demo and ordered the game. Wasn't really that hard to figure out how to play. But I wouldn't have bought it without the demo. Maybe it all balances out in the end.
Thanks
In looking on the Matrix forums I found an old topic from 2002 on the wargame community polls asking “Ok, what do you think of demos?”.
I guess the question is still raging on. I've noticed at least one person has done an about face with regards to demos. It looks to me like it breaks down to the “have and have not”. After all, why produce a demo for people who may not have the money to buy your game
The “have” buy a game because of a review, a screenshot, a picture on a box or a recommendation and have the money to possibly waste on a game they won't play. Just because somebody recommends it doesn't necessarily mean it's your cup of tea.
The “have not” need every bit of information (including demos) and then some to shell out their hard earned money.
Taipan, I totally agree with you.I made a hard and fast rule a long time ago now, that I would never buy another game unless I was able to play a demo version of the game before outlaying my hard earned money. I look at the game forums to get a general view of the game, and if I like what I see I download the demo. Each person is an individual, and what is a fantastic game for one person can be an utter carp for another. The proof is in the pudding, and the pudding is a downloadable demo.
Call me wary if you like but I have been bitten too many times on the arse by games that promise so much and delivery so little.
...but the days of buying a game just to let it gather dust on the shelf after a couple of weeks are a thing of the past for me.
I bought CC2 for the cover art.
Guz, you took a chance and got lucky.
KNac007, I have to totally disagree with you. Just my opinion.Ey, you won't get much more in a demo from what you can get reading reviews (pro...
Rather we will invest our limited resources into further development of the game engine and in developing new games/scenarios.
Arjuna, I fully understand and appreciate your point of view. The more great games you put out the better for the whole wargame community.
But please realise that unless the demo includes a fully integrated tutorial that does not require users to read a manual it is going to lose us more sales than it makes. We know this from the RDOA demo.
I find this hard to believe unless you're trying to get the C&C guys to buy into the RTS part of the game.
Anyway, I've played the RDOA demo and ordered the game. Wasn't really that hard to figure out how to play. But I wouldn't have bought it without the demo. Maybe it all balances out in the end.
Thanks
Jaws
RE: I won't buy this game without a demo. Why?
ORIGINAL: Jaws
But please realise that unless the demo includes a fully integrated tutorial that does not require users to read a manual it is going to lose us more sales than it makes. We know this from the RDOA demo.
I find this hard to believe unless you're trying to get the C&C guys to buy into the RTS part of the game.
You can't pick who downloads the demo.
If Panther went to the time and trouble of producing a demo, it would be pointless just making it available here and on a few other genre sites where only a few will see and download it. The extra sales wouldn't cover costs. But stick it on Fileplanet etc. and thousands will download it - the great majority of whom will be expecting another Sudden Strike or Blitzkreig, and declaring it "crap" when they find it isn't.
Solution - don't bother, and trust in good reviews and word of mouth (and indeed virtual tours [;)] ).
RE: I won't buy this game without a demo. Why?
I'm sorry I didn't make myself clear.
That's exactly my point. If your a wargamer and you download the demo, your going to put the (in my opinion - not that much) effort into trying out every facet of the game.
If your a RTSer you won't and come to the conclusion it's not for you. But there's alway the possiblity that some may like it and buy it.
It can't hurt having your demo out there for all to see and test considering what a great job Panther Games has done. You might get more converts to this genre which, from what I've been reading on Matrixs' forums, is what we need.
But stick it on Fileplanet etc. and thousands will download it - the great majority of whom will be expecting another Sudden Strike or Blitzkreig, and declaring it "crap" when they find it isn't.
That's exactly my point. If your a wargamer and you download the demo, your going to put the (in my opinion - not that much) effort into trying out every facet of the game.
If your a RTSer you won't and come to the conclusion it's not for you. But there's alway the possiblity that some may like it and buy it.
It can't hurt having your demo out there for all to see and test considering what a great job Panther Games has done. You might get more converts to this genre which, from what I've been reading on Matrixs' forums, is what we need.
Jaws
RE: I won't buy this game without a demo. Why?
ORIGINAL: Jaws
I'm sorry I didn't make myself clear.
Perhaps I didn't either [;)]
The point is, the reaction of those who download the game thinking it's something it isn't. OK with most who don't like it it's maybe "hmmm.. not really my thing", but with more than a few its to post "that game SUCKS" on every board they frequent. Or perhaps more subtly, your demo ends up with one or two stars at Fileplanet and people don't bother. The RTS gamers greatly outnumber the wargamers, I'm afraid.
RE: I won't buy this game without a demo. Why?
Yes, your right.
But I know one person who played the demo and bought the game. Without it that wouldn't have happened.
But I know one person who played the demo and bought the game. Without it that wouldn't have happened.
Jaws
RE: I won't buy this game without a demo. Why?
And so how is average Joe going to become aware of the game? Totaly stat fabrication but 80/100 may not like the game, but 20/100 are interested, and 5/100 buy the game. So every 100 downloads, five purchase the game. 10000 downloads, 500 extra sales + THIER word of mouth to spread the gospel further. The advanatages of a downloadable demo, far out reaches the possible "bad" advertising that may result from a small minority who are childish enough to post such a thing.
I wish it were so, but you couldn't be more wrong. After only a few months the RDOA demo had been downloaded over 100,000 times. We gave up keeping count after that. This did not translate into 5,000 extra sales or anything like it. What it did lead to was a lot of negative feedback on review sites, which cost us sales. The RDOA demo did not include an integrated interactive tutorial. It relied on people reading the pdf supplied. They didn't. They either found it too hard to understand what was happening or not stimulating enough because they didn't know what could be done - how to play the game. So surprise, surprise, quite a few took the time to slate the game. And you know "mud sticks" and it cost us big time.
As I said a fully interactive tutorial would solve the problem and then I would agree with you that a demo would be a good thing. But until we've recouped some more of our huge investment or some generous soul donates us $30,000, it will have to wait.
Can someone give an honest opinion of the AI? Nothing frustrates me more than being able to "crack" a game, and know it's pitfulls. I want to be surprised by what the AI does, and not re-play the same scenario, and get the same sort of tactical responces time and time again.
I'll let others reposnd on this. While I know what the answer is, I'm a little biased. [;)]
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FM Paul Heinrik
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Wed May 19, 2004 4:22 pm
- Location: Houston
RE: I won't buy this game without a demo. Why?
ORIGINAL: Hertston
ORIGINAL: jpinard
Korsun Pocket was recommended to me as well. Could not try a demo. Bought it and the expansion at the same time. Tried it, and tried it, and didn't like it. That was $80 lost when S&H was factored in.
So let's compare: $30 for a game I played a ton and loved (and knew I would before I bought it). $80 for a game I don't like.
I don't want to be burned again. There's a benefit to demos, especially for wargames...
I'm not sure why you think you've been "burned"... most people think KP is a great game (including, presumably, whoever recommended it to you), and it certainly has none of the dreaded "issues" that afflict many games. You don't like it, fair enough ... but who here HASN'T forked out on a game they didn't really get on with ? With me it's maybe one in three, demos or not.
In this case, the RDoA demo will probably suffice for your purposes.
I'd disagree on the "especially for wargames" bit, too. The "trouble" with decent wargames (and both KP and HttR are), is that they are complex. A demo is fine for a shooter or RTS, but very few habitual downloaders have the time or patience to find out how to play anything more complicated than "point and click".... which is fine until they start posting "this game is crap" everywhere they can.
Sometimes you have to read the reviews (on the game's boards, and wargames sites) and take a chance. Of the two most prolific wargame producers (Matrix and HPS), NEITHER make a habit of demos. That leaves Battlefront, and not a lot else.
I think that said it all. Demos are great but not in a wargame a small demo is not going to give you the overall effect. It might let you see the mechanics of game play and mess with their interface but, it's not going to really tell you any thing. Plus, once you have played enough different war strategy games "you" will have a good feel for what "you" want in this genera. Almost, all these games are the same but each has it's own little differences that make each one unique. These differences in each game is the reason each computer gronard has for liking one game over the other. And definately a "new" game doesn't mean a "better" game just look at the following for Steel Panters.
Btw, I don't have HTTR either, but I'm dying to get it....soon, very soon.
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Willard
- Posts: 139
- Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2004 8:42 pm
- Location: Up the Nung river past Do Lung bridge...
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RE: I won't buy this game without a demo. Why?
I'd figure I'd jump into the fray as a few interesting points have been brought up about demos, purchases and customer expectations...
First off, let me relate my HTTR experience. I purchased HTTR several months ago after downloading the RDOA demo. Did I purchase it because of the demo??? Yes and no. I owned Combat Mission Beyond Overlord/Barbarossa-Berlin and Strategic Command from Battlefront. A couple of years ago when RDOA was marketed through Battlefront, I saw it on their website. I had looked into it at the time very briefly, but for whatever reason it didn't strike me at the time. I played CM1/2 for awhile and I actually liked the style of play it offered. However, micromanaging squads ala Close Combat in 3d wasnt my cup of tea. This is not to say that these aren't good games---they are, I just enjoy others a bit more.
I also own a couple of Paradox titles--- EU II and HOI. I had been playing HOI alot, however I was growing frustrated with a bunch of things. First, the game scope was a bit "too big" --- IMO it was trying to be everything for everyone. This was compounded with the problem that is was essentially unplayable out of the box until version 1.05---unless you used either the Stony Road or CORE mod. Now that this game is version 1.06 with the CORE mod, it is almost where it should have been out of the box except it is almost 2 years since release. Am I pissed about that??? You bet I am. I dont think that was unreasonable to expect that product since I paid $45 for a game that was unplayable out of the box unless you used a player created mod.
What does this all mean to me? Well having played CMBO and CMBB I was intrigued by the concept, but not necessarily the scope of the game. Having played HOI, I was looking for something a bit smaller in scope but without the horrendous bugs, poor customer support and questionable forum moderation. Unlike some of the Paradox fans, I don't think a company making 6 patches is good support---its a company trying to fix a crappy product. What Paradox did with HOI was akin to a car salesman selling a customer a car without an engine or tires and then had the audacity to act indignent when the customer inquired about the rest of the car!!! Of course if you raise these issues there that opens a whole can of worms.
What does this mean to someone thinking of buying HTTR? Well as I said before, I stumbled back upon HTTR after seeing a reference to RDOA in the Battlefront forums. I was able to track a demo download from GameSpot and started playing. I was immediately hooked. The game was the scale I was looking --- not tactical ala CMBO/BB and not grand strategy like HOI. It was operational in nature that puts you into the seat of the corps commanders facing the challenges of the Market-Garden battle. From the demo, it was apparant that Panther had made a great game with a dynamic "chain of command" system. IMO, the days of counter click fest (like Korsun Pocket) are over. This game system is the wave of the future for wargaming. Granted some of the old grognards may pine for the days of hexes and cardboard counters, but no one can reasonably deny that this is a far superior approach to the genre.
The icing on the cake for me was research into the game and forums itself. First off, all the reviews I read for HTTR were excellent--I don't recall one negative review and I searched far and wide. Second, after visiting the forums, I didn't find what one normally has grown to expect at gaming forums---the negative "bitch" session feedback. You can look through countless posts in this forum on this game and you would be hard pressed to count the number of negative posts on one hand. Plus since the community is relatively small, everyone here is courteous, helpful and threads do not degrade into flame wars with people trying to push their own agenda.
Finally, and most importantly, the game is playable out of the box!!!! This is a tribute to the Panther development team and the beta testers. They have spent quality time in developing this product and in the very few patches released, they have addressed some minor problems based upon additional quality beta testing and customer feedback. In a time when the norm seems to be that companies such as Paradox attempt to pass off poor programming and beta testing as a finished product, it is refreshing to see Panther do it the "right way." That is why I will be a repeat customer spending my hard earned money to purchase the upcoming release of the strategy guide, Crete expansion, BFTB, Normandy and the East Front titles.
I am sure some people will think I have gone overboard and posted too much of a "fanboy" response. I don't think that would be a fair response...because HTTR is a quality product and Panther a quality team --- their accomplishments stand on their own merit, they don't need me to sing their much deserved praises.
First off, let me relate my HTTR experience. I purchased HTTR several months ago after downloading the RDOA demo. Did I purchase it because of the demo??? Yes and no. I owned Combat Mission Beyond Overlord/Barbarossa-Berlin and Strategic Command from Battlefront. A couple of years ago when RDOA was marketed through Battlefront, I saw it on their website. I had looked into it at the time very briefly, but for whatever reason it didn't strike me at the time. I played CM1/2 for awhile and I actually liked the style of play it offered. However, micromanaging squads ala Close Combat in 3d wasnt my cup of tea. This is not to say that these aren't good games---they are, I just enjoy others a bit more.
I also own a couple of Paradox titles--- EU II and HOI. I had been playing HOI alot, however I was growing frustrated with a bunch of things. First, the game scope was a bit "too big" --- IMO it was trying to be everything for everyone. This was compounded with the problem that is was essentially unplayable out of the box until version 1.05---unless you used either the Stony Road or CORE mod. Now that this game is version 1.06 with the CORE mod, it is almost where it should have been out of the box except it is almost 2 years since release. Am I pissed about that??? You bet I am. I dont think that was unreasonable to expect that product since I paid $45 for a game that was unplayable out of the box unless you used a player created mod.
What does this all mean to me? Well having played CMBO and CMBB I was intrigued by the concept, but not necessarily the scope of the game. Having played HOI, I was looking for something a bit smaller in scope but without the horrendous bugs, poor customer support and questionable forum moderation. Unlike some of the Paradox fans, I don't think a company making 6 patches is good support---its a company trying to fix a crappy product. What Paradox did with HOI was akin to a car salesman selling a customer a car without an engine or tires and then had the audacity to act indignent when the customer inquired about the rest of the car!!! Of course if you raise these issues there that opens a whole can of worms.
What does this mean to someone thinking of buying HTTR? Well as I said before, I stumbled back upon HTTR after seeing a reference to RDOA in the Battlefront forums. I was able to track a demo download from GameSpot and started playing. I was immediately hooked. The game was the scale I was looking --- not tactical ala CMBO/BB and not grand strategy like HOI. It was operational in nature that puts you into the seat of the corps commanders facing the challenges of the Market-Garden battle. From the demo, it was apparant that Panther had made a great game with a dynamic "chain of command" system. IMO, the days of counter click fest (like Korsun Pocket) are over. This game system is the wave of the future for wargaming. Granted some of the old grognards may pine for the days of hexes and cardboard counters, but no one can reasonably deny that this is a far superior approach to the genre.
The icing on the cake for me was research into the game and forums itself. First off, all the reviews I read for HTTR were excellent--I don't recall one negative review and I searched far and wide. Second, after visiting the forums, I didn't find what one normally has grown to expect at gaming forums---the negative "bitch" session feedback. You can look through countless posts in this forum on this game and you would be hard pressed to count the number of negative posts on one hand. Plus since the community is relatively small, everyone here is courteous, helpful and threads do not degrade into flame wars with people trying to push their own agenda.
Finally, and most importantly, the game is playable out of the box!!!! This is a tribute to the Panther development team and the beta testers. They have spent quality time in developing this product and in the very few patches released, they have addressed some minor problems based upon additional quality beta testing and customer feedback. In a time when the norm seems to be that companies such as Paradox attempt to pass off poor programming and beta testing as a finished product, it is refreshing to see Panther do it the "right way." That is why I will be a repeat customer spending my hard earned money to purchase the upcoming release of the strategy guide, Crete expansion, BFTB, Normandy and the East Front titles.
I am sure some people will think I have gone overboard and posted too much of a "fanboy" response. I don't think that would be a fair response...because HTTR is a quality product and Panther a quality team --- their accomplishments stand on their own merit, they don't need me to sing their much deserved praises.