Scale

Ozie · Post by **Ozie** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 11:18 pm

Hi all

Im new here but Ive been playing TAO2 since it went freeware.

i got a question:

I cant find in the manual any referance to size scale of the map. From artillery unit ranges I estimated it would be 2km per hex. Is this correct? If not what is the hex size?

e_barkmann · Post by **e_barkmann** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 1:47 am

Ozie wrote:Hi all

Im new here but Ive been playing TAO2 since it went freeware.

i got a question:

I cant find in the manual any referance to size scale of the map. From artillery unit ranges I estimated it would be 2km per hex. Is this correct? If not what is the hex size?

The KP map scale is 1.7 miles per hex.

Cheers chris

Ozie · Post by **Ozie** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 2:53 am

Chris Merchant wrote:The KP map scale is 1.7 miles per hex.

Cheers chris

Is the map scale same in the Ardennes map? Since I counted the US heavies (155m Big-Tom's) having range of 15 hexes. That would give them the range of 25,5 miles or 40.8 km which clearly is too big. So I guess the scale is diffrent in that map?

hank · Post by **hank** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 5:09 am

I asked the same question on another forum. Is it 2Km per hex ? ... 1 Kilometer per hex ? ... ?? (1 Km is fairly common in other hex based strategy games)

Also, the turn duration I've assumed to be 1/2 day. I got this from the reinforcements popup that would toggle from AM to PM as you moved the cursor along the dialog box.

Is that correct ?

And the definitive answer to the hex scale is ... ?

... 2km seems to high ... I didn't think the 155's could shoot that far.

these two items are basics that should be documented somewhere.

... thanks

hank

"Joss" Osborne · Post by **"Joss" Osborne** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 6:36 am

Chris Merchant wrote:The KP map scale is 1.7 miles per hex.

Cheers chris

Chris,

Now I'm confused.... the manual that comes with the game (.pdf format) says in section 3.1 "The Battlefield Map"

"Each hex represents three kilometres".

?????

Regards,

Joss

e_barkmann · Post by **e_barkmann** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:29 am

Joss wrote:Chris,

Now I'm confused.... the manual that comes with the game (.pdf format) says in section 3.1 "The Battlefield Map"

"Each hex represents three kilometres".

?????

Regards,

Joss

well, perhaps SSG could look at this and respond. Ian Trout has informed me the scale is 1.7 miles, which I think would translate to about 2.73 KM.

Cheers Chris

"Joss" Osborne · Post by **"Joss" Osborne** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 8:21 am

hank wrote:

... 2km seems to high ... I didn't think the 155's could shoot that far.

hank

Max range for an American 155 was 23 kilometers.... or approximately 8-9 hexes.

hank · Post by **hank** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 8:59 pm

Just some math:

1 mile = 1.609344 kilometers

0.62137 miles = 1 kilometer

3 kilometers = 1.86411 miles (one hex)

23 kilometers x 0.62137 = 14.29 miles (range of a US 155 howitzer)

or 23 km = 7.6667 hexes

(sorry for the vascillation, I think in terms of miles most of the time ... the one metric number I live and die by is 25.4

Is this right ... someone check my math

So, is the KP and TAO maps different scales ?

Also, is the half day turns correct ?

hank

Sonny · Post by **Sonny** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 10:44 pm

Well, somewhere I read that a turn is 12 hours. Maybe in the manual - can't remember.

Fred98 · Post by **Fred98** » Thu Sep 04, 2003 3:18 am

Yes, one turn is 12 hours.

For game play purposes, it seems to me that there are 2 types of artillery-

Long range and short range.

For game play purposes thats OK by me.

bobnickbob · Post by **bobnickbob** » Fri Sep 05, 2003 8:38 pm

I have a friend that is now 81 years old and was a loader on a 155 , he said the max range was supposed to be 16 miles. Weather and wind did make some changes on this long shot.
bnickb

Ozie · Post by **Ozie** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 8:43 am

bobnickbob wrote:I have a friend that is now 81 years old and was a loader on a 155 , he said the max range was supposed to be 16 miles. Weather and wind did make some changes on this long shot.
bnickb

That would give us approximately 1 hex = 1 mile for the Ardennes map. I got the feeling 1 hex in Korsun map is larger than that. It might be the 1,7 miles or 3 kms mentioned earlier.

Massattack · Post by **Massattack** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 4:50 pm

The first few pages of the manual mentions it all, turns are 12 hours, hexes are 3 kilometers. There is no mention of TAO scale being any different, and a check on a map of the distance between towns confirms the scale there as 3 klicks per hex. I don't know enough about artillery max ranges, maybe the makers were over enthusiastic,either way it would be interesting to hear their comments. It may not be a major issue, but is always nice to get historical accuracy in these genres of games.

Regards.

Ozie · Post by **Ozie** » Tue Sep 09, 2003 2:12 am

Ok... I check the distances in the Ardennes map area and it seems the scale is same as in KP map.

This leads to one conclusion:

The artillery ranges are out of scale.

We have artillery shooting over 40kms!!!

This is in Ardennes map. AFAIK KP map and artillery ranges are just fine.

Ozie · Post by **Ozie** » Thu Oct 02, 2003 10:32 pm

So does anyone from SSG comment on this? Why is those arty ranges beyond all imaginable?

And on the other note is there a possiblity some scenario maker would modify those arty ranges to match historicals?

Rob Gjessing · Post by **Rob Gjessing** » Fri Oct 03, 2003 11:04 am

The Editor is available for anyone to make those changes.. infact they are very very easy changes to make.. if someone tells me what the ranges you want changed either global (ie: all 7 range ART down to 5) or unit spefic (tell me the units and the new ranges), then I can change them quite easily in the editor.

Of course this will effect play balance of the game.

Ozie · Post by **Ozie** » Fri Oct 03, 2003 4:03 pm

Well I really liked to hear a developer comment regarding this before going through all those artillery ranges in question.

And clarifications on some design aspects. For example how are the rangers rounded. Up or down? What range to use if unit is composed of mixed type of guns and so on...

Rob Gjessing · Post by **Rob Gjessing** » Fri Oct 03, 2003 5:12 pm

To my mind the reasons why the ranges have been set the way they have is a non issue. If you think they are wrong, or if you want to change them, then you should go ahead and do it.. thats what the editor is there for.

Im sure SSG have a very valid reason why they have set the ranges they way they have, no reason someone cant make a variant if they want smaller ranges.. the same can be said about the strong points in TAO3 along the front line, some people dont like them. Thats fine.. take them out

I think people should be using the editor more, and actually using them for minor adjustments like this is dead easy.

Ozie · Post by **Ozie** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 4:35 am

IMO its not a non-issue. It has been a design choice and part of the whole game. That is not to say it can't be changed I just liked to know why its so. Maybe a honest mistake. And I believe as customer wanting better and better products its my duty to point possible mistakes out so they wont be (hopefully) made next time.

Ozie · Post by **Ozie** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 7:28 pm

Ok, I did some research about the guns and here are some allied guns used. These are the absolute maximum ranges during ww2. They are to best of my knowledge true. If anyone has further info it is appriciated. Also it is needed to find out what unit uses which gun.

Code: Select all

country      type                        max range (km)    max range (hex)




UK         Q.F. 25-pr Gun Mk 2           12,250               4,5

UK         B.L. 5.5-inch Gun Mk 3        16,550               6,1

UK         B.L. 7.2-inch Howitzer        18,000               6,6



US         155mm Howitzer M1             19,300               7,1
 
US         105mm Howitzer M2             11,150               4,1

US         M8 75mm Pack Howitzer          8,800               3,2

US         155mm M1917/18                18.350               6,7

US         155mm Gun M1/M1A1/M2          23.100               8,5

The ranges are rounded to closest 50m.

Scale

Scale

155's range