Easier for the allies to invade Spain than France

[smckechnie]

I think the developers need to relook the mobilization and defenses of Spain.

I have been playing a game where the axis have strong defenses in France and the low countries.

The allied player seeing this and not having all the allied tac air built up decides to first invade Portugal. You would think this would immediately mobilize Spain for the axis but it did not.

The allied player safely disembarks large amount of forces in Portugal, eliminating supply hassles from landing in France.

The allied player then attacks Spain and knocks them out in one turn, allied player gets great ports to bring in more forces out of range of Luftwaffe.

Call me crazy, but it shouldn't be easier to invade and knock out Spain than to invade France somewhere. At the very least, Spain should be able to hold out one turn.

[amandkm]

Must have been a perfect storm situation for Spain to fall in one turn. I've seen axis take it in two, but invading as allies, I had to land, then move to madrid, take out defenses which took about two turns, then move north to take an alternative capital. Spain usually puts up a good fight.

[crispy131313]

I would think in this situation that Spain should mobilize, why else would the Allies do this manoeuvre if not to march through Spain, especially considering game mechanics.

[smckechnie]

Allies with Naval, tac air, and tanks in Portugal can easily take Spain in one turn.

I can't remember if the allied player had any paratroops.

[sveint]

Here's a counter-point:

A historical Allied invasion of Spain wouldn't have lasted a day. Franco was shrewd, he would have folded and joined the Allies so he could stay in power.

Far too many Axis fanboys here who just want to fulfill their fantasy of conquering the world. Some of us actually want a historical game. The rest of you could play the fantasy game Hearts of Iron.

[crispy131313]

Sveint I had the same thought that Spain would likely join the Allies IRL rather then go to war, however I think that Spain mobilizing is the only deterrent to such a manoeuvre in this game.

[BillRunacre]

I've checked the scripts, and an Allied declaration of war against Portugal should swing Spain 35-45% towards the Axis.

Generally it will already have a good pro-Axis leaning, and in the past it seemed that players were often investing diplomacy in Spain, therefore an Allied attack on Portugal would be virtually guaranteed to trigger Spain joining the Axis.

I'm not necessarily averse to slightly increasing the diplomatic effect of an Allied attack on Portugal, but I think Axis players only need to invest a few chits early in the war in Spanish diplomacy as a countermeasure. It seems a reasonable precaution too against this eventuality?

[Steely Glint]

Hubert, please leave it just as it is. It's fine.

[amandkm]

If a 'fix' needs to be emplaced for Spain, perhaps the focus should be on supply and perhaps their military rather than diplomacy. The terrain can be dicey and the roads were atrocious. If Spain can last three or four months (against Allies OR Axis), that should be a reasonable outcome.

[Xenocide]

I think one of the big problems is the "surprise" of minor neutrals being at 0 supply on the first turn. It is easy to win quickly. Against Spain it is not difficult to mass enough air to bomb the defenders of Madrid out of existence and, if you have a fast enough unit, take the capitol on the first turn. I also think this makes Belgium and the Netherlands fall way too easily.

[crispy131313]

ORIGINAL: Steely Glint

Hubert, please leave it just as it is. It's fine.

My above comment was ignorant to the diplomatic swing of Spain, which will in some games push Spain to the Axis, and in other games not. Variability is good. If anything I would increase the variable so that it becomes more difficult to perfectly plan, which is easier knowing the cap on diplomatic events.

[amandkm]

I don't mind the low countries getting the 0 supply penalty to reflect the blitzkrieg, but I'd argue against it being applicable to neutrals in general

[Xenocide]

Even if they are supplied you can still wipe out the Low Countries in one turn. It gets silly in a lot of situations that neutrals are always caught completely off-guard.

[amandkm]

ORIGINAL: Xenocide

Even if they are supplied you can still wipe out the Low Countries in one turn. It gets silly in a lot of situations that neutrals are always caught completely off-guard.

But really, weren't the low countries caught off guard?

[Xenocide]

ORIGINAL: amandkm

But really, weren't the low countries caught off guard?

Not really. Both Belgium and the Netherlands were fully mobilized and building fortifications months before the Germans invaded. The Netherlands military was admittedly very obsolete. The speed of the German advance was due to their new tactics, ability to advance where the Allies were convinced they could not, and their new tank tactics and not due to the Belgian and Dutch militaries not being ready.

[Jackmck]

"I've checked the scripts, and an Allied declaration of war against Portugal should swing Spain 35-45% towards the Axis.

Generally it will already have a good pro-Axis leaning, and in the past it seemed that players were often investing diplomacy in Spain, therefore an Allied attack on Portugal would be virtually guaranteed to trigger Spain joining the Axis. "

No- in this game the Axis attacked Vichy France which caused Spain to become less pro-Axis leaning. Then the Allies invested Diplomacy in Spain which pushed it actually to slightly pro-allied. The invasion of Portugal moved it back to pro-Axis but it was soon to late for the Axis to diplomatically activate Spain before the U.S. forces attacked.
If the U.S. is allowed to invest in diplomacy for Spain, the Allies can pretty much ensure that Spain remains short of the 45% shift towards the Axis that an invasion of Portugal would cause.

[BillRunacre]

The solution that springs to mind would be for there to be an extra swing towards the Axis if Spain is pro-Allied in the event that the Allies declare war on Portugal.

This would mean that if the Allies had invested heavily in diplomacy towards Spain, and Spain is close to joining the Allies, then an attack on Portugal would render that diplomacy totally fruitless. Maybe that is correct but not everyone will likely be happy with it.

I'll think more on this, and further contributions are welcome.

[Numdydar]

I would say that Franco's opinion toward the Allies should be very dependent on which side was doing better. As Franco was not prepared for conflict against either side.

My quess is that invading Portugal by either side would have been looked as an attack on Spain as there is really no place else to go but Spain. Now the Allies 'could' as least make the claim that it was just to shorten their lines to the Med. But the believability of that would depend on what NA looked like at the time. The only way that claim would be strong would be if Gibraltar had been taken. But even then Franco would have assumed that going after Portugal was just a precursor to going after Gibraltar.

I really do not see any reality that invading Portugal would not cause Spain to go to war with the invading forces. Which is why the Allies invaded France versus Iberia.

Furthering complications was the fact that Portugal was a very long term ally of Britain. So I really doubt that Churchill would have agreed to destroy that just to get to Germany through Spain. Especially since Spain is a lot further from Germany than French invasion sites.

Here is a good article about Portugal during and after the war https://1997-2001.state.gov/regions/eur/rpt_9806_ng_portugal.pdf

And here is one about Spain https://digitalcommons.wcl.american.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=1304&context=auilr

[Mercutio]

I would like to see something like partial mobilization vs just starting at zero supply. Fine, I get it, the low lands. Early game success is tough to duplicate, especially on this scale. I would venture to say the supply level when you do a DoW should be based on their level of Allied or Axis. So if Spain for example was 50% Axis, it would have 1/2 supply and at least that in readiness. If you betrayed someone leaning your way, ALL the nations leaning your way should move toward you opponent.