April 18th, 1943

[LargeSlowTarget]

https://youtu.be/h4-TtvSBYOw

[btd64]

Big day in the Pacific for the Allies. He was a great man....GP

[Yaab]

[spence]

Certainly that clip was the ideal as far as what happened on that Japanese bomber on April 18, 1943. I do not doubt that Admiral Yamamoto behaved in a very Japanese way and accepted his fate. I sometimes wonder what he may have done if he had been confronted with the Emperor's acceptance of the Allied terms on 14/15 August 1945.

[Anachro]

The clip misrepresents the occurrence, no doubt so as to play up Yamamoto stoically accepting his fate, which goes well with Japanese sentiments; the actual autopsy on Yamamoto's body concluded he died from a bullet wound to the head while the plane was still in the air, inflicted by a P-38.

[Kursk1943]

ORIGINAL: Anachro

The clip misrepresents the occurrence, no doubt so as to play up Yamamoto stoically accepting his fate, which goes well with Japanese sentiments; the actual autopsy on Yamamoto's body concluded he died from a bullet wound to the head while the plane was still in the air, inflicted by a P-38.

Cited from "Fading Victory", the Diary of Admiral Matome Ugaki, Yamamoto's Chief of Staff, who was shot dowm in the second plane and survived severely wounded, page 359:
"The body of the commander in chief was found on the seat outside of the plane still gripping his sword. It hadn't decomposted yet und was said to be in a state of great dignity. He must really have been superhuman.
A postmortem made while his body was being carried on a subchaser found two piercing machine-gun bullet wounds in his lower jaw and shoulder. Most probably he was killed instantly while in the air."

[Anachro]

ORIGINAL: Kursk194

Cited from "Fading Victory", the Diary of Admiral Matome Ugaki, Yamamoto's Chief of Staff, who was shot dowm in the second plane and survived severely wounded, page 359:
"The body of the commander in chief was found on the seat outside of the plane still gripping his sword. It hadn't decomposted yet und was said to be in a state of great dignity. He must really have been superhuman.
A postmortem made while his body was being carried on a subchaser found two piercing machine-gun bullet wounds in his lower jaw and shoulder. Most probably he was killed instantly while in the air."

Yes, exactly.

[Yaab]

Yamamoto was a clutch player. Too bad he airballed at the buzzer.

[LeeChard]

I never took to heart Ugaki's story of the 'repose' of Yamamoto's body.
I believe he was cleaning up the tale to honor his commander and friend and for the people of Japan.
It's hard to believe anybody aboard an aircraft that hits the jungle at well over 200 MPH is going to be
found in any shape but horrible.

[Kursk1943]

I believe Ugaki's story, because I think that he wrote his daily diary without the thought that it could be published sometimes. He wrote a lot about his personal feelings and attitudes and gave very frank situational reports. Why should he then clean up the tale? This doesn't correspond with the whole rest of the diary. Besides, even if I think that Ugaki is honest, he could only write what was told him by others about how Yamamoto was found (he was found by a rescue team of the Japanese Army). Ugaki therefore wasn't an eyewitness.
And if you examine the history of aircraft crashes you will find lots of examples of dead people found with appearingly unharmed bodies while other were pulverized. Nothing uncommon.

[LeeChard]

You make several good points and I would rather believe Ugaki's story than not.
I look upon Yamamoto as one of the pre-war visionary's I admire. I'm not sure his death actually
had any effect on the length of the war but putting myself in the shoes of the guys that made
the decision to approve the mission I don't see how they could have justified not giving the go-ahead.

ORIGINAL: Kursk1943

I believe Ugaki's story, because I think that he wrote his daily diary without the thought that it could be published sometimes. He wrote a lot about his personal feelings and attitudes and gave very frank situational reports. Why should he then clean up the tale? This doesn't correspond with the whole rest of the diary. Besides, even if I think that Ugaki is honest, he could only write what was told him by others about how Yamamoto was found (he was found by a rescue team of the Japanese Army). Ugaki therefore wasn't an eyewitness.
And if you examine the history of aircraft crashes you will find lots of examples of dead people found with appearingly unharmed bodies while other were pulverized. Nothing uncommon.

[Anachro]

I'm more inclined to believe Ugaki's story about the final repose, though I have no doubt there are elements of theatrics to it and he probably tells/writes it in a more flattering way than it would appear in reality. As for my remarks, they are on the depiction in the movie, which shows Yamamoto with no head wound and very much alive as the plane goes down, stoically going down "with the ship."

[Chickenboy]

Bushido nonsense.

High energy crashes into triple canopy forest do horrible things to human bodies. So do .50 slugs plunging through a calvarium at high velocity. Brain matter, bone, ejected ocular orbits, blood and connective tissue would be spattered all over the aircraft. Then, on impact, limbs would separate, bones would be atomized and gelatinized. Any foreign objects (e.g., tree branches) would doubtless keep some of this material from the forest floor and traumatize it further.

In repose? Nonsense. Clutching his ceremonial sword? Don't make me laugh. His body would have deformed as any other body would have when acted upon by the extraordinary forces exerted upon it. Don't glorify his biological reality: he got turned into a pile of goo like anyone else shot in the head and crashing through the jungle at high speed.

[Zorch]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Bushido nonsense.

High energy crashes into triple canopy forest do horrible things to human bodies. So do .50 slugs plunging through a calvarium at high velocity. Brain matter, bone, ejected ocular orbits, blood and connective tissue would be spattered all over the aircraft. Then, on impact, limbs would separate, bones would be atomized and gelatinized. Any foreign objects (e.g., tree branches) would doubtless keep some of this material from the forest floor and traumatize it further.

In repose? Nonsense. Clutching his ceremonial sword? Don't make me laugh. His body would have deformed as any other body would have when acted upon by the extraordinary forces exerted upon it. Don't glorify his biological reality: he got turned into a pile of goo like anyone else shot in the head and crashing through the jungle at high speed.

+1

[rockmedic109]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Bushido nonsense.

High energy crashes into triple canopy forest do horrible things to human bodies. So do .50 slugs plunging through a calvarium at high velocity. Brain matter, bone, ejected ocular orbits, blood and connective tissue would be spattered all over the aircraft. Then, on impact, limbs would separate, bones would be atomized and gelatinized. Any foreign objects (e.g., tree branches) would doubtless keep some of this material from the forest floor and traumatize it further.

In repose? Nonsense. Clutching his ceremonial sword? Don't make me laugh. His body would have deformed as any other body would have when acted upon by the extraordinary forces exerted upon it. Don't glorify his biological reality: he got turned into a pile of goo like anyone else shot in the head and crashing through the jungle at high speed.

Everything I've seen the last 31 years on an ambulance backs this up. I've seen some horrendous things. I've seen people looking relatively intact {They weren't} after extreme trauma. But go back to Sir Isaac Newton....an object in motion stays in motion. 200mph is a lot of motion. Cut it in half {I always do when someone tells me how fast a vehicle was}, 100mph is STILL a lot of motion.

Sounds dramatic and makes him heroic.....which indicates propaganda {can't blame Japan for this, either}. I suspect reality is quite a bit more gruesome.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ejected ocular orbits

warspite1

I love it when you talk dirrrty!

[Kursk1943]

Just to cite some more of the "bushido bullshit" of Ugaki:
"The first plane was staggering southward, just brushing the jungle top with reduced speed, emitting black smoke and flame". So perhaps no sudden impact at 200mph and what about losing additional speed when hitting the treetops?
Ugaki's fate sitting behind the pilot:"When the bomber was near the sea surface, the pilot lost control...The ship ditched into the sea at full speed and rolled over to the left by more then 90°."
The pilot had only a little scratch on his head, Ugaki and the paymaster survived wounded. What a mircacle! For sure only bushido bullshit and Jap propaganda again or have you ever seen an honest Japanese?

[Yaab]

Maybe there is a middle ground? "He died in le pose, crouching behind his ceremonial sword"?

[Elessar2]

The clip did seem to show a wound to his thorax...

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Kursk1943

Just to cite some more of the "bushido bullshit" of Ugaki:
"The first plane was staggering southward, just brushing the jungle top with reduced speed, emitting black smoke and flame". So perhaps no sudden impact at 200mph and what about losing additional speed when hitting the treetops?
Ugaki's fate sitting behind the pilot:"When the bomber was near the sea surface, the pilot lost control...The ship ditched into the sea at full speed and rolled over to the left by more then 90°."
The pilot had only a little scratch on his head, Ugaki and the paymaster survived wounded. What a mircacle! For sure only bushido bullshit and Jap propaganda again or have you ever seen an honest Japanese?

Which is more likely?

Yamamoto somehow reversed Newton's second law and was impervious to the hydrostatic shock effects of two heavy caliber hypersonic .50 slugs traveling through his lower jaw and shoulder? That an impact with a triple canopy jungle and / or gasoline fire and / or 150+G impact with the ground left him 'in repose' and clutching a silly sword?

or

That a highly revered Japanese Admiral's body was treated with utmost respect and the truth stretched to conceal his (literally) defacing injuries that were dehumanizing.

or

The properties of a bomber ditching at sea are exactly the same as those of a (flaming) bomber plunging through the jungle canopy to make a nose-down crash landing into the ground.

Have you seen the physical damage done to the human body by multiple .50 slugs? How about one slug to the side of the face / jaw and another to the shoulder? Nothing about that says 'repose' or 'peaceful' or 'serene'.

You decide for yourself. I know what I believe absent physical evidence. The word of a well-meaning Japanese underling notwithstanding.