8MP Team Game - The Axis team

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Telemecus
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RE: 8MP Game Data

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RE: 8MP Game Data

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RE: 8MP Game Data

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RE: 8MP Game Data

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RE: 8MP Game Data

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RE: 8MP Game Data

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RE: 8MP Game Data

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RE: 8MP Game Data

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8MP Telemecus Signs Off Command

Post by Telemecus »

Supreme Command Sign Off

For me as the Axis Supreme Commander of the 8MP team the game is over as I hand the batton on to Crackaces for turn 55

I did want to end with my thanks to Timmeh and Hortlund for reincarnating the team game. My thanks to all the Axis team players who have been companions and remain friends - lowsugar, Timmeh, Stelteck, thedude3571, timmyab, Crackaces, beender and leverkuhn. RickTrembly I bet you could never have imagined what you missed out on! Thanks to the Soviet team for being great opponents, I will not list all but do feel a special mention is needed for EwaldvonKleist and M60A3TTS without whom on a number of occasions I could mention the Soviet team would have ended. And finally to all our followers and contributors here.
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8MP - The Dawn is surely coming

Post by Telemecus »

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Coming up in Part II -
The Dawn is Surely Coming...
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RE: 8MP Game Data

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ORIGINAL: Telemecus

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Reported for spamming. Desperate to get 5th Matrix star?

Fine conclusive Analysis [&o]

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RE: 8MP Game Data

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Learnt from the master! [:D]

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RE: 8MP Game Data

Post by joelmar »

Telemecus: wow. This is science, very impressive and instructive. I knew I was missing a lot in the management of the air war, I had many questions and this just nailed most of them and made me aware of many things, great job thanks a lot!!! Hoping to have the chance to participate in such a game in the future [:)]
"The closer you get to the meaning, the sooner you'll know that you're dreamin'" -Dio
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8MP: Kabuki Dance

Post by Telemecus »

ORIGINAL: TunganNinja
I struggled to understand how the Kabuki Dance worked, even after reading HYLA's very thoughtful explanations in previous threads.

This diagram from post 470 might help

Image

If you want to use Kabuki as the "Business as Usual" and for all your aircraft including heavy bombers then leaving a few basess empty the previous turn will not be enough. You need to Kabuki airbases with a lot of fuel and ammo - which means they need to have had aircraft on them and not be empty during the logistics phases.
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8MP: "The Dawn is surely Coming"

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The Game and AAR take a new direction. After much consternation the 8MP game evolved into a more singular contest. M60 agreed to continue the game from Turn 54 and submitted Turn 55 to Crackaces.

I want to comment on differences I have observed between single player games and team games. In one respect Team games have a synergism of collective minds and experiences. However, there is also the complexity of managing different worldviews. The AAR folder was filled with ideas that went through multiple iterations to get a team worldview for a cohesive plan. Each of the players petitioned for the forces to execute their plan on their front. The game starts with units in jump-off points to execute that plan. But a single player might look at things differently and have a different perspective. So the challenge will be to evolve the current positions into a cohesive plan that a player and the advisers (offline and online in the forum) can execute.

There are some strategic considerations in my worldview I want to focus on. The Soviet Union as a Manpower Level of about 5.5M in the field. I have harped on this for some time, but I assess that 6.1M is a magical number. That is enough men to form units to cover the front North to South and deep enough to absorb a Panzer Thrust. One interesting factor is that the Soviets have farmed good Guards units. Thus 2 Guards and a regular division at fort level 3 amasses enough CV (irrespective of firepower) to force using armor to bust the position. In some cases 2 Guards corps and a division forces an entire Panzer army to deliberate attack. Any units of any type absorb enough MP's to prevent a breakout. The Soviets have a very strong front line that they can maneuver units to keep a MLR turn after turn without a breakout. The key is if this MLR breaks down.

Given this environment the strategic focus will be on Manpower. The capture of major manpower centers to slow the building of the Soviet Red Army 2.0.

There are three operational considerations. First, take land that can extend German airpower into the deep battlespace. Second, take key railway junctions to extend supply LOC. Third, per front optimize the MLR to stretch the Soviet manpower situation.

Turn 55 starts with the area around Rostov surrounded by the 1st Panzer Division. The original plan was to head straight for Stalingrad. However, given the above strategic and operational considerations the Germans have a different plan now. The infantry in the South will contain the Soviets at Rostov while the 1st Panzer Army makes a mad dash into the Caucasus.

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RE: 8MP: "The Dawn is surely Coming"

Post by Crackaces »

Center:

The map below shows the Center at the end of the turn. The Soviets made 4 counterattacks in their turn (the red tanks show the MLR at that point) and the Black tanks show the MLR at the end of the turn. We advanced 20 miles in tough terrority covered by Guards with definsive values that range from a low of 52 to a high of 81. Some positions require river crossings.

The focus the next two turns will be to isolate Tambov. I can push these guards units back usign my Panzers, but at what cost?

Airpower is one thing to touch on.

The recon and fighter sweeps determined that the enemy air doctrine % reqd to fly = 40%

A look at the recon and sweeps around airbases showed fighters were set to fly no more then 3 hexes away

Apart from near Saratov all airbases were more than 6 hexes away from each other meaning no mutual support - so they were tackled separately and airgroups destroyed in detail.

Fewer opportunities however were presented for fighter sweeps to precede bombing of the air bases - in two instances the bombing had to be with escorts.


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RE: 8MP: "The Dawn is surely Coming"

Post by Crackaces »

At the end of turn 55 the German's make a huge land grab in the South cutting rail lines that might be used to set up a defense.

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RE: 8MP: "The Dawn is surely Coming"

Post by joelmar »

Crackaces, it's good news that you guys are going on, even in a modified fashion, this game is most interesting and your last comments seem to show that the Soviets have means to resist in the long run even after a couple of setbacks like those suffered in the air war. Hoping that you guys will keep it up, it will be interesting to see where it goes.

I have a question about the air war, in Telemecus's comments and explanations about the centralized model for the bombers groups, it comes at turn 15 coinciding with the beginnning of the industrial strategic bombings phase. But it's not clear to me if this model appeared there because you devised it then, or if it was on purpose for the strategic bombings. If it was only devised on turn 15 I'm wondering if you guys would have adopted it right at the beginning of the game if you had known then? I can't figure out reasons not to.

Anyway, I'd like to thank you once again guys for all your explanations, I've been studying this game every moment I can for more than 2 months (like some kind of mental illness... [;)]), and understanding and playing around with this system has been the most fun part for me since the PocketHub porn fascination started to fade away... I know centralizing airbases might be a bit gamey, but I guess it's the way to go to make the best of the f***ed up air management engine and keeping things tidy. And both sides can take advantage of this. I haven't read much about WitE2 but I hope for something that permits to assign needs to airbases, so even an empty air base at logistics could be fully loaded of supplies next turn or something in this line. lol... it's a mystery to me why the air management was devised the way it is, and also a wonder, because I don't understand how programmers that were so efficient in creating a game engine as complete as this could create something so weird and complicated for a part of it, it doesn't even logically model anything that could happen in real life. I mean, Kesselring could surely send an airbase and full it of supplies as he pleased, even if it was empty of air groups. Ok, enough ranting! lol!
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RE: 8MP: "The Dawn is Surely Coming"

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I spent a small part of my adult life asking the question "and?" .. So you create a policy to address issue 'A" and then ask "and?". For example, you reward Salespeople to sell order equipment (well you got to get rid of inventory), and new sales suffer..this discussion can develop into its own book and has <smile>.

The game sets up policies for moving HQ around. Moving an Army from one Army group costs 100 Admin points. It is the simplistic thing to do from a gaming point, but the designers wanted to prevent this for some reason. I am sure there is some historical reason for this policy. But game mechanics do not support the assessment for AP's. The costs of moving divisions costs at most 3 points. Nine divisions costs 27 points. Much cheaper than moving an Army with 9 units attached by 75%!

The time to plan and move the HQ's 9 takes a lot of time and is painful. It takes away from the game. Think about detaching every IC [individual contributor or divisions in this case] from an entire org chart, move management, and reattach the IC's. But to manage the current number and disposition of units something has to give. The picture above shows units moving into the Caucasus with a need to transfer HQ's to support supply. So the Germans are planning and executing a huge reorganization. It takes "out of the box" non historical thinking to optimize these effort. It might mean the Italians are in charge of the Finns and Finns are in charge of some Germans but the Germans are eventually in charge of everything West of Leningrad/Moscow/Stalingrad <smile>
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RE: 8MP: "The Dawn is Surely Coming"

Post by joelmar »

Yes, some management choices are painful I know, been there done that many times. But for the air war management, it seems from reading other posts that it was just not well designed because it has been adressed in WitW and is one of the main difference in the game engine from what I understand. I am a programmer myself, so I know sometimes you simply don't get it right and trying to fix it doesn't always give good results, rewrite everything is often way more efficient and even the only option possible. Anyway, I will come around to read about Air Management in WitW sometime, but for the moment my interest is in WitE and I have much to learn and implement in my gameplay yet.

That said, I love the micromanagement and those kind of decisions are only more fun to be had! lol! It takes me forever already to play a turn. The excel spreadsheets have given me ideas about a MySQL database for managing all that data. I started work on it, but it will take sometime yet.
"The closer you get to the meaning, the sooner you'll know that you're dreamin'" -Dio
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